feedback on #37

[numbskull]

Agalloch interview was interesting - I guess I'm going to have to listen to my wife's Sisters of Mercy albums - I really hated them back in the day, but damned if they aren't one of the most cited bands in the interviews I've read lately. Thought it was funny he called you to task for being a muckracker.

Adding the logos to the items is a decent way to break up the articles - so I like it.

Loved the history on Liiva as alotta that shit was going down as I was going away. Very informative, nice work.

Your comments on the Blackened vox on "The Mantle" mirror my own feelings. I wonder if they'll drop them in the future. Wouldn't bother me.

Iron Savior remains an enigma for me... I have "Unification" which I rarely listen to, but they get alotta good press. Hmmm.

I need to get the Slough Feg rerelease - didn't even know they'd done a s/t.

I was very disappointed by the one track I heard from the latest Unleashed... so your skewering of them is appropriate from what little I heard. Whatta drag.

I'll take that Tzefa if no one else wanted it - just got my copy of LotFP today - I tried as fast as I could.

Liked the quickie review format, although it begs the question, how many times do you have to listen to something before you know you've given it a fair shot?

Loved your shitfest on Mayhem - although I still dunno whether or not I like GDoW.

Was glad to see you didn't like Soilent Green - they do nothing but bore me yet they get tons of fawning press.

Your comments regarding Rose Tattoo - spot on. Time waits for no man... and it goes faster than you expect it will. Trust me. Regarding "Pain" itself, it's a mostly crap record, unfortunately... loved those guys back in the day. Whatta drag.

And the best for last - no news bits!

Very good issue.

Now Jim, serious question (since you were looking for some last issue) - why do you expect bands to have righteous dedication to their art when you yourself do not devote the same to your zine by removing all typos? Is this not a double standard on your part?

You may have addressed this in the past, but if so - I missed it.

Enquiring minds wanna know... and I hope you don't site deadlines as the reason.

 

[GarmFedMeToTrolls]

Now Jim, serious question (since you were looking for some last issue) - why do you expect bands to have righteous dedication to their art when you yourself do not devote the same to your zine by removing all typos? Is this not a double standard on your part?

You may have addressed this in the past, but if so - I missed it.

Enquiring minds wanna know... and I hope you don't site deadlines as the reason.

No no no, he ADDS those typos for effect. It's part of the retro look he's going for; he doesn't want to look too "polished".

 

[Jim LotFP]

Originally posted by numbskull
Agalloch interview was interesting - I guess I'm going to have to listen to my wife's Sisters of Mercy albums - I really hated them back in the day, but damned if they aren't one of the most cited bands in the interviews I've read lately. Thought it was funny he called you to task for being a muckracker.

I actually thought it was quite funny that they were snippy with each other because they are very much alike. Two people who have much the same tastes and attitudes on things arguing is one of the funniest things one can watch.

Originally posted by numbskull
Iron Savior remains an enigma for me... I have "Unification" which I rarely listen to, but they get alotta good press. Hmmm.

Rock solid but these days unspectacular. What do you do? There's no grounds to stomp on em, the CD itself has me singing along and air guitar and air drums...

Originally posted by numbskull
I'll take that Tzefa if no one else wanted it - just got my copy of LotFP today - I tried as fast as I could.

Well alright.

Originally posted by numbskull
Liked the quickie review format, although it begs the question, how many times do you have to listen to something before you know you've given it a fair shot?

Depends on the album. Unleashed took one listen, then the review was being listened to on the second pass... others, like Vintersorg's new one, has had at least twenty spins and I still don't know what the hell is going on a lot of the time.

Originally posted by numbskull
And the best for last - no news bits!

Not exactly true. Just a short one as a lot of news got its own blurb up front. The paragraph beginning with the Deceased bit was the news bit section!

Originally posted by numbskull
Now Jim, serious question (since you were looking for some last issue) - why do you expect bands to have righteous dedication to their art when you yourself do not devote the same to your zine by removing all typos? Is this not a double standard on your part?

Not really a double standard...

Just no feasible way to actually get the proofreading done in a sane amount of time as is. When an issue gets done, it gets printed out, a once-over reading (and that catches a LOT as it is, you'd be scared if at least this wasn't done), then printed out again, and off to the copiers and mailed within a couple hours.

If I had a proofreading neighbor who liked to read things at a moment's notice, then maybe we could get things done.

I should log WHEN portions are written, and then later on find out if any more typos are made for things I write at 3-6am than things written at more normal hours.

 

[Jim LotFP]

Originally posted by GarmFedMeToTrolls
No no no, he ADDS those typos for effect. It's part of the retro look he's going for; he doesn't want to look too "polished".

I'm a troll.

Can I eat you?

 

[numbskull]

Rock solid but these days unspectacular. What do you do? There's no grounds to stomp on em, the CD itself has me singing along and air guitar and air drums...

That's plenty enough for me mosta the time. Mebbe I'll get the new one then and see.

Depends on the album. Unleashed took one listen, then the review was being listened to on the second pass... others, like Vintersorg's new one, has had at least twenty spins and I still don't know what the hell is going on a lot of the time.

Can't really argue that sometimes one spin is enough, as sometimes 15 seconds of the first track is enough... but there's been a few bands who I hated on the first several spins that I eventually grew to love. Ya don't always know I guess.

Generalizations can't be made and it was a pointless question, dammit.

Not exactly true. Just a short one as a lot of news got its own blurb up front. The paragraph beginning with the Deceased bit was the news bit section!

See, you hid them so cleverly that I didn't even notice I was reading 'em.

Not really a double standard...

Just no feasible way to actually get the proofreading done in a sane amount of time as is.

First off, the typos don't bug me. I'm just trying to paint you into a corner with your own brush... although I'm not entirely sure if I have a solid grasp on what your brush is, which is why I'm belaboring the point.

So, using your time constraint problem with LotFP, can't bands argue that they have the same dilemma for every release that they produce? Particularly the mid-upper tier bands who have a label breathing down their back for new material done on time and budget?

Isn't alot of flawed music released simply because of time constraints that are insurmountable? If so, isn't this forgivable?

When an issue gets done, it gets printed out, a once-over reading (and that catches a LOT as it is, you'd be scared if at least this wasn't done), then printed out again, and off to the copiers and mailed within a couple hours.

I completely understand the hassles of production and deadlines - its the reason I've become much less critical of artists working in any media. I'm wondering if it the task of doing a weekly zine will effect you the same was as time goes on, or if your righteous indignation will last.

Does age itself mellow us, or do the lessons of time mellow us?

When I was younger I got righteously pissed off about tons of releases, these days I just think "Hey, it's the best they could do in their circumstances."

This doesn't prevent things from sucking, but it does make me less annoyed about their existence.

This is a problem with professional journalism as a whole, because the more shit that you learn about the work that goes on behind the scenes and the more of that work you have to do yourself, the more forgiving you may become. So is becomming more forgiving a good or bad thing? Is it realistic, or lazy?

If I had a proofreading neighbor who liked to read things at a moment's notice, then maybe we could get things done.

Well, if those nine million bands making CDs didn't have to work at Starbucks, they could practice more and make better records.

I should log WHEN portions are written, and then later on find out if any more typos are made for things I write at 3-6am than things written at more normal hours.

I know it seems like the typos are the crux of the issue, but they're merely the ingredient for the discussion. Their existence in LotFP is what allows me to question your demands on musicians... the typos don't concern me on any other level than that. All mags have them, particularly Metal mags. Terrorizer is chocked full of them. It's just that I get a weird vibe when critics apply a standard to other people's work that they themselves do not adhere to.

If you demand perfection from others, should your work not be perfect as well? If you allow yourself to put out "substandard" material due to time and budget restraints, why can't others?

Food for thought?

 

[Jim LotFP]

Originally posted by numbskull
So, using your time constraint problem with LotFP, can't bands argue that they have the same dilemma for every release that they produce? Particularly the mid-upper tier bands who have a label breathing down their back for new material done on time and budget?

If they don't have the balls to say, "We're not ready", and they can be forced into a studio... *shrug*... I don't know what to say. I know some of the delays lately for me was because I simply didn't have anything to write that I would think is interesting to read. You want me to put up my handdrawn Metal Genre chart and kill a couple pages? Hell, I tossed it the next week. Not every idea can go in...

Originally posted by numbskull
Isn't alot of flawed music released simply because of time constraints that are insurmountable? If so, isn't this forgivable?

Not when there are other bands who overcome the same insurmountable odds. Just like when looking at LotFP Weekly, you're not going to think, "This is better than Isten, METAL, or Descent. A periodical is a snapshot in time, an album is forever.

If I compile material for a book someday and the errors remain, THEN that would be a shit-eating catastrophe.

Originally posted by numbskull
I completely understand the hassles of production and deadlines - its the reason I've become much less critical of artists working in any media. I'm wondering if it the task of doing a weekly zine will effect you the same was as time goes on, or if your righteous indignation will last.

Crapola is crapola, and perfection is better than 'it's what we could do with what we had'... pretending 'pretty good' is as good as perfect... I hope I don't do that as a policy, now or ever.

Originally posted by numbskull
Does age itself mellow us, or do the lessons of time mellow us?

I get more pissed off as I learn the lessons of time... "Why didn't you tell me BEFORE? What the hell am I supposed to do about that NOW?"

Originally posted by numbskull
This is a problem with professional journalism as a whole, because the more shit that you learn about the work that goes on behind the scenes and the more of that work you have to do yourself, the more forgiving you may become. So is becomming more forgiving a good or bad thing? Is it realistic, or lazy?

Becoming more forgiving is a bad thing, I think. The more I learn what goes on behind the scenes, the more respect I have for the bands that manage to make the great albums... not the ones who fail to.

Originally posted by numbskull
Well, if those nine million bands making CDs didn't have to work at Starbucks, they could practice more and make better records.

If all they're doing with their lives is working at Starbucks, they should have plenty of time to rehearse so they can go in the studio and bang out the album quicker. Show me metal musician doctors and lawyers and THEN we'll talk "I have no time!"

Originally posted by numbskull
If you demand perfection from others, should your work not be perfect as well? If you allow yourself to put out "substandard" material due to time and budget restraints, why can't others?

Back in the magazine format days, I HAD a proofreader. On one issue more than one. Still had 34234873 typos. How mental do I make myself over things that will happen anyway? A very argh thing.

I kill bands with productions so bad it's unlistenable. Have any of my typos ever completely confused the point I was trying to make?

I'm more concerned about criticism like "That Metal Maniacs thing was unnecessary" or "That CD Expense Essay was too long", that's actual content stuff I'll pay attention to...

How many people reading this are now assuming LotFP weekly looks like alphabet soup that requires a PhD in Typo-ology to read?

Bottom line:
Lilitu's Memorial was self financed and has a top notch sound and has top notch packaging. Derek and company are NOT rich.

Hammers of Misfortune's The Bastard and Khanate's debut were recorded on 8 track machines and sound clear and in Khanate's case amazing.

Those are the standards for production to me then that everyone should live by.

 

[numbskull]

I know some of the delays lately for me was because I simply didn't have anything to write that I would think is interesting to read.

See, that's an excellent reason - and is a perfect example of why LotFP is working under the same standards that you expect from bands.

The ol' "art VS craft" argument is what I was trying to boil this down to.

If I compile material for a book someday and the errors remain, THEN that would be a shit-eating catastrophe.

Yeah... good point.

Becoming more forgiving is a bad thing, I think.

I pretty much agree - but damned if I'm not doing it anyway.

The more I learn what goes on behind the scenes, the more respect I have for the bands that manage to make the great albums... not the ones who fail to.

Excellent point.

I kill bands with productions so bad it's unlistenable. Have any of my typos ever completely confused the point I was trying to make?

I would assume none - but like I said - the example of typos is just fodder for the discussion - I could have easily said "design" or "grammar" or "paper stock" or anything else surface.

I'm more concerned about criticism like "That Metal Maniacs thing was unnecessary" or "That CD Expense Essay was too long", that's actual content stuff I'll pay attention to...

Ah, that content shit is a tarbaby - ya can't please all the people any of the time. I'm talkin' existentialism here!

How many people reading this are now assuming LotFP weekly looks like alphabet soup that requires a PhD in Typo-ology to read?

Hopefully none if they paid attention to what I wrote. If anyone is freaking they can always look at your online stuff and see that it's no big deal.

Man, these UM forums hate Netscape - it's a royal bitch trying to edit this stuff.