Five Former Members Of In Flames Unite In The Halo Effect
- Thread starter CladInShadows971
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Krofi-kun was ridiculous in the Cyhra 1 thread, but maybe he's calmed down since then. Niclas, Daniel and Mikael being involved might also help balance out the Jesper disdain, along with the fact IF themselves have disappointed Krofius to the point where even he struggles to defend them.
Anyway, I somewhat get where Slave is coming from with people over-praising a new release. He and many others have done it with IF stuff over the years so he's talking from personal experience. However, that isn't how it works for me. If I'm hyped up for something it has to be even more impressive than I'm expecting to get really good marks. Otherwise I will immediately say that this is average or shit and just move on. Usually the albums and songs that floor me are ones I knew nothing about before, so I have no expectations. When I do have expectations it means something has to be really, really good for me to be rating it in the 8/9/10 range. I wish it wasn't like that for me, honestly, but it is what it is.
I mean, look at Cyhra II. We could have been like Ciko, Phobiac, Slave, etc with new IF stuff and praise it and talk about how great it is, only to walk back on that some months or years later and say actually nah, it isn't so good. But no, we pretty much just ripped into that shit as being fucking average and boring as soon as we heard it. Didn't matter that we were hyped as fuck, if it isn't good then it isn't good. It would be the exact same for THE. If it wasn't good I would be very much saying so - but it is, and as far as I'm concerned the only way you wouldn't think so is if you don't like MDM anymore or actually never liked it at all. Now it's fine to be this way, but acknowledge it and let those of us who do appreciate the genre rightly glorify this modern classic
Anyway, I somewhat get where Slave is coming from with people over-praising a new release. He and many others have done it with IF stuff over the years so he's talking from personal experience. However, that isn't how it works for me. If I'm hyped up for something it has to be even more impressive than I'm expecting to get really good marks. Otherwise I will immediately say that this is average or shit and just move on. Usually the albums and songs that floor me are ones I knew nothing about before, so I have no expectations. When I do have expectations it means something has to be really, really good for me to be rating it in the 8/9/10 range. I wish it wasn't like that for me, honestly, but it is what it is.
I mean, look at Cyhra II. We could have been like Ciko, Phobiac, Slave, etc with new IF stuff and praise it and talk about how great it is, only to walk back on that some months or years later and say actually nah, it isn't so good. But no, we pretty much just ripped into that shit as being fucking average and boring as soon as we heard it. Didn't matter that we were hyped as fuck, if it isn't good then it isn't good. It would be the exact same for THE. If it wasn't good I would be very much saying so - but it is, and as far as I'm concerned the only way you wouldn't think so is if you don't like MDM anymore or actually never liked it at all. Now it's fine to be this way, but acknowledge it and let those of us who do appreciate the genre rightly glorify this modern classic
Jester Slave
Narcissist
I guess I'll have some administration to do at work, because I signed off everything as it was still August!
Anyway, I was talking about the whole record, not the individual songs. Most of them will stand the test of time in a vacuum, but as a record, it's not all that you hype it up to be.
I have nothing against Jesper, because if I hated every musician who were assholes at some point, I'd run out of stuff to listen to pretty quickly. In fact, I am happy that he seems to be more and more stable, and the shortcomings of this record doesn't really have anything to do with him. I was fine with Cyhra's first record too. I'd only be mad if this record was actually garbage, but I think it's around a solid 7, so you guys fanboying it up to as high as 9.5 is nowhere near in the realm of causing me physical pain.Good old Slave, you knew he'd come steaming in to criticise something that the rest of us are praising, especially something that Jesper was involved in
As is often the case Slave, your issue stems from your inability to comprehend that your opinion is not a globally accepted truth. Whilst your opinion is perfectly valid and fine to express, you fall into the same trap you always do of being outraged that most of us have a different view.
Just because you think Stanne's vocals are boring on this record doesn't make it a fact. Just because you think these songs together aren't interesting doesn't make it a fact. Whatever you think MDM's strengths are is irrelevent, as you are on record as calling TJR boring. You don't understand or, as far as I can tell, even really like the genre. You really aren't based placed to comment on it, let alone lecture others on what MDM should or should not be.
As for knocking the scores down in a month or two - I rate Shadowminds and Feel What I Believe higher now than I did when they came out, so probably not.
I know it hurts that these guys just released an album of such quality Anders and Bjorn could only dream of doing the same, but it's going to be OK man.
My opinion is not universal nor is it a law, but there are facts which are hard to argue with. Namely Stanne's dry and uninteresting non-clean vocals and the record's inability to slow down. Yes, I did call TJR boring and while it has grown on me since, I still remain by my opinion that Whoracle was the pinnacle of that early IF sound and not TJR. But whether you agree with it or not, compare those to this record and think again about lecturing what is or isn't mdm's characteristics. If you truly think this record is prime mdm, then it's just a reactionary take. No, you don't have to pinpoint to me all the mdm-ish parts of the songs, but it's just soooo annoying (even with IF) when some mdm-like motif appears in a song and people are slurping all over in the comments "OMFG ITS BACK!!! ANOTHER TRUE MDM BANGER!!!" - no, it's not lol. It shares its family tree with mdm, but don't pretend that there isn't a huge gap between the likes of TJR/Whoracle, Clayman, Natural Born Chaos and this record. Call it whatever you want, but this record omits or underrepresents many of the fun and unique parts of the genre.
There are many songs or records which quickly run their course, especially if you are hyped up for them. It can work the other way as well, being overly harsh for something and only appreaciating it later. Our Englishmen is a supernatural specimen, we've known that already, but most people function like average people, so if you ask them about the movie they have just seen, then you will hear some overly reactionary takes. It's not until much later that you can actually make a more reasonable judgement. That's why many fan subreddits are pure garbage, because everyone is overdosed on the kool-aid, so every single new material/episode is just the best ever, always.
And you would've said you had known my opinion beforehand if I was giving this record like a 3, so you can't possibly say you knew what my opinion will be, aside from trashing Stanne, who is just an objectively boring singer without his cleans. What was more surprising: you guys treating this like the second-coming of mdm, or me giving it a favorable review while pointing out its flaws? I think there were better chances of me giving it a 10, than any of you even hovering around the 7 mark.
Yeah, that's all great except it doesn't really make sense for you to rate it that highly based on what you've said.
'Vocals are dry and boring. Songs are just chugga chugga, not interesting. Not even close to the best MDM stuff out there. Almost entirely mid-tempo album is too fast. With that said, 7/10."
You also continue to fail to understand the difference between a fact and an opinion.
'Vocals are dry and boring. Songs are just chugga chugga, not interesting. Not even close to the best MDM stuff out there. Almost entirely mid-tempo album is too fast. With that said, 7/10."
You also continue to fail to understand the difference between a fact and an opinion.
I'm going to be that guy to say that this album could use prime Anders. I love DT, I like Mikael's harsh vocals, I'm a big fan of his cleans, but for a while now he's been too one-dimensional. However fucked up Anders harsh vocals were, they gave away emotions, as did Mikael early on. Probably a price of saving your vocal chords. Still, Anders from Colony could bring that album to a whole new level.
With that being said, Tomi Joutsen from Amorphis might have been even better choice. Or Petri Lindroos from Ensiferum, because why not?
I also dislike some of the lyrics (what's up with those angels recently?) and miss some epic solos, perhaps one 6+ minutes track as well. Other than that... it's really good. Probably not my album of the year, since I have super high hopes for Soilwork, but it's certainly staying with me for a while. Today, I'd give it a 8.5/10.
That's just because you don't like Insomnium
Soilwork also does really nice with those longer ones (Whisp of the Atlantic, Father And Son, recent Overgivenheten).
Soilwork also does really nice with those longer ones (Whisp of the Atlantic, Father And Son, recent Overgivenheten).
That's just because you don't like Insomnium
Soilwork also does really nice with those longer ones (Whisp of the Atlantic, Father And Son, recent Overgivenheten).
Nah man, it's the same across genres for me... I just really prefer songs within a 4 to 5 minute span. Anything above that and I generally start to lose interest or find the songs are just artificially inflated to be longer. There are exceptions - but by and large an album with tracks all in the 3-5 min range works just fine for me.
Makes sense.
I like them a little bit longer, because they have a bigger chance to change the mood. My Pale Morning Star from Insomnium does that perfectly.
Also, they have a 40 minute long album, which is basically one song and it's my definite top 3 albums ever, so perhaps my preferences are the niche.
I like them a little bit longer, because they have a bigger chance to change the mood. My Pale Morning Star from Insomnium does that perfectly.
Also, they have a 40 minute long album, which is basically one song and it's my definite top 3 albums ever, so perhaps my preferences are the niche.
We've all got our preferences, so that's cool. Skydancer has some pretty long tracks and I love all of those songs, so it can work for me. I think it has to be structured in a very specific way though and I haven't dug into that enough to really know why I'm OK with some longer tracks but not OK with a lot of others.
Shadowminds - Mid Tempo
Days of the Lost - Faster Tempo
The Needless End - Mid Tempo
Conditional - Faster Tempo
In Broken Trust - Slower Tempo
Gateways - Slower Tempo
A Truth Worth Lying For - Mid Tempo
Feel What I Believe - Faster Tempo
Last of Our Kind - Mid/Faster Tempo
The Most Alone - Slower Tempo
Yes Slave, no variety here at all. Just breakneck pace across the record.
Shadowminds - Mid Tempo
Days of the Lost - Faster Tempo
The Needless End - Mid Tempo
Conditional - Faster Tempo
In Broken Trust - Slower Tempo
Gateways - Slower Tempo
A Truth Worth Lying For - Mid Tempo
Feel What I Believe - Faster Tempo
Last of Our Kind - Mid/Faster Tempo
The Most Alone - Slower Tempo
Yes Slave, no variety here at all. Just breakneck pace across the record.
You want to know another album I was hyped for that I immediately knew was garbage? Fucking Siren Charms. I loved SOAPF and was eagerly anticipating SC. In Flames at the time were still my undisputed favourite band. I had every reason to overrate that album, but no, as soon as I heard it I knew it was shit. You want to talk about issues with vocals and pacing, look no further than that dumpster fire of an album.
Jester Slave
Narcissist
I didn't rate it as an MDM record and the recency bias I was talking about before affects me as well.
As for the tempo: turning the tempo up or down one notch on almost the same song is very weak variance. The saving grace is that the instrumentals are very nice to listen to, because even a not so interesting riff like on The Needless End is enough to bop your head around. But if I'm giving out 9s or 10s, then I would need something special. Take Jotun for example: a song with a beginning, an end (don't mock me, you know what I mean), like three different type of vocals (non-chalant talking; angry and screaming "jumpy" verses; shouting, melodic chorus - + occasional growls but let's not count those), guitar harmonies which are given time to breathe and are not drown out by the (over)production of everything needing to be loud and in your face, plus (and this is far and beyond the "call of duty" in my eyes, even for a 10) the song is like constantly morphing within itself yet you never feel it's a jumbled mess.
There are many 9 or 10 examples for me on The Ride Majestic as well, but to name one which isn't Father and Son, since I feel like that's almost an 11, thus cheating: Petrichor by Sulphur. I don't even think that song is special, it's just very well made and the sum of its parts doesnt overstay their welcome.
The one song from THE which is actually interesting among the tracklist is Gateways. It's not among my favorites, because with the instrumentals FINALLY giving eachother and the harmonies some room to breathe, it becomes even more important to have a proper singer to fill in the gaps, but Stanne is just doing his monotone stuff, like the archons from Starcraft. Still not a bad song, but with a singing voice which actually sounds like they felt something, it would be amazing.
Well, OFTW is still amazing. My point is that I doubt a month or a year so from now you would still be as over the top about the entire record like you are right now.
There's also such a thing as a nostalgia bias, and I think you're displaying some of this with Whoracle. Now as you know I love Whoracle and it's a 9/10 record for me, but it's not like Whoracle has significant tempo changes across the board. No more so than DotL anyway. The only time it really slows down in any meaningful way is JST and WWTM, the same way DotL does with Gateways and In Broken Trust. Otherwise the album is very much a mixture of mid/faster tempo tracks. As far as vocal variance goes, I mean... come on, man. Anders 'talking/mumbling' vocals can be juxtaposed against Mikael's clean vocals and basically have the same amount of coverage across both albums, so again, I think this is just nostalgia bias.
You also have to consider Days of the Lost is not really in the same MDM sphere as Whoracle. It's far closer to the early-to-mid-2000s MDM scene which tended to gravitate more towards traditional heavy metal than the folky/DM mixture heard in TJR and Whoracle. That sound is extremely unique and hasn't really been duplicated since, so I don't know if you can really do a straight comparison between these albums anyway. For me it would be like trying to compare Character, Fiction or Come Clarity to Whoracle. Yes they are technically in the same genre but does it really make sense?
Nobody keeps the hype about anything as time passes. I've just came home listening to Clayman in my car. I love the album. Do I feel as hyped about it as the first time that I listened to it? Well, no. Because I came to know well the songs. Is still an album that I listen to on a regular basis? Every month. Will I feel the same about THE? Of course I will. Because it's not only an amazing album, it also has all of the elements that I love about melodeath. The only thing that could change my mind was for them to have released the acoustic tracks that they used for the live shows because that would have made it a 10/10 album.
It totally depends how susceptible you are to first impressions and overall hype. I'm not really susceptible to either, I like what I like and it's rare that I'll significantly deviate from my first impression of an album. Beast in Black's Dark Connection was a 10/10 for me when I heard it nearly a year ago. It still is. It doesn't always follow that appreciation for an album or songs will inevitably fade over time. It mainly depends on you as a person.
I'm thinking about... The surprise effect.
Once that I know the album, and the songs, that surprise effect is gone. But I still enjoy it a lot. So it's not the hype what makes me give songs or an album one rating or another.
What I know is that my head still shakes on it's own when I listen to those old songs. As it shakes on it's own while I listen to DOTL. Because the music has everything that I love. And that thing doesn't just fade away. It is consistent in time.
What Slave doesn't seem to understand is that, for someone like me, it's about the music. Lets say it with Mikael's words. He cannot feel what I believe.
Once that I know the album, and the songs, that surprise effect is gone. But I still enjoy it a lot. So it's not the hype what makes me give songs or an album one rating or another.
What I know is that my head still shakes on it's own when I listen to those old songs. As it shakes on it's own while I listen to DOTL. Because the music has everything that I love. And that thing doesn't just fade away. It is consistent in time.
What Slave doesn't seem to understand is that, for someone like me, it's about the music. Lets say it with Mikael's words. He cannot feel what I believe.
Going further, for me, the hype is just a hindrance. I know it's there. I know it's going to make me feel good. But, once that is gone, what's left, about the music, is pure enjoyment and appreciation.
It's amazing how my appreciation for some songs has changed after listening to them within the album. DOTL was my least favourite from the singles but now I like it more than before the album was released. The same goes for IBT. In the live thing it was ok. Within the album it's far better. These songs complement each others in a way that's really difficult to achieve.
It's amazing how my appreciation for some songs has changed after listening to them within the album. DOTL was my least favourite from the singles but now I like it more than before the album was released. The same goes for IBT. In the live thing it was ok. Within the album it's far better. These songs complement each others in a way that's really difficult to achieve.
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It's important to understand just how difficult if not straight up impossible it is to write a unique and original-sounding melodeath album today. Everything that can be done is and has been done in the past already, this genre is now over 30 years old. There are only so many chord progressions and melodies that you can write. All of these bits on THE that some of you interpret as intentional homages were far more likely just accidents and happenstance.
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