For anyone interested in old norse literature...

Ziuwarian

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Jun 3, 2002
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I've szumbled across a seemingly sophisticated site which holds an archive of very much most of the old norse poetry and texts that were "preserved" (I mean, written after the Viking's time, like the Edda, I think)

Nonetheless, it's very interesting... I bet the Norwegians and if we'd have Icelandics, those would understand most of it?!

Anyway, here's the link:
For poetry:
http://gagnabankar.bok.hi.is/cgi-bin/SagaZ3950_Eng.asp?ordaleit=Kv%E6%F0i&B1=Search

For more choice in literatue:

http://sagnanet.is/saganet/?MIval=/DHS_subject_eng&language=english

Haven't seen much so far, but what I've seen were scans of the actual records... :)
 
Old Norse is pretty far from modern Norwegian. One can recognize
words and meanings, but the whole grammatic structure is different.
I'm Norwegian, and I've been taught Old Norse at school and at
the university, but I still have a hard time reading this. Matters
change of course, if you have read a text in Norwegian, and then
try to deal with the Old Norse version.

The links are cool to look at, with the pics of the old texts and all,
but not much for reading at all times, when texts look like this one:
http://sagnanet.is/saganet/?MIval=/...ge=313&language=english&START=251&WINSIZE=250
 
No "old" language is intelligible for modern speakers just like that, even if some words do look similar. If you come from Italy, it doesn't mean you understand any more Latin than the rest of the world. If you come from Germany, it doesn't mean you understand Old High German better than anyone else (in fact, Germans tend to understand Middle English or Old English better than Brits). It's not just about orthography and grammar, it's mainly about semantics. Even if you find a word in an old text that you recognize...are you sure it means the same thing as the modern equivalent? One easy example: guess what "mead" once meant. No, not the drink. "mead" meant food - any food (I think drinks were included). That's why a mead-hall basically means dining hall.

Anyway, Ziu, cool links. I bookmarked them, although I don't understand Old Norse myself. But it's always good to collect resources.


P.S.: If I was a speaker of Old Norse hearing Fjell saying she'd prepare mead for me, then I'd be looking forward to a rich meal (with much drinking, of course). ;)
 
I know what you mean, but still, old norse is closest related to Icelandic and nynorsk, than to any other language... it was more of a guess that it's easier to understand for Norwegians. But it's good to see someting's preserved (even tho what's preserved here is not first handed itself, right?)

Well, the fact that Germans can understand old English (Anglo Saxon) better than the Engluish themselves is that it is a German language after all, as the Anglosaxons were German tribes. Modern English is "polluted" by the later arrival of the Normans and other influences (french, the french also influenced the Normans already)
 
Originally posted by Ziuwarian

Well, the fact that Germans can understand old English (Anglo Saxon) better than the Engluish themselves is that it is a German language after all, as the Anglosaxons were German tribes. Modern English is "polluted" by the later arrival of the Normans and other influences (french, the french also influenced the Normans already)

I know. :) English is basically a mixture of Anglo-Saxon, Celtic (only about 100 words), French and Latin. Throw in massive Danish influences during the "danelagu".


@ Fjell: Cool, so you have a cognate word in Norwegian for "mead". The way you describe it, it sounds like the immediate successor to Old Norse "mead" (however it was written; in Old English it was "meod").
 
A little example of how similar (or not) standarized Old Norse, and
nynorsk is. This is stanza 57/58 from Voluspá.


Sól tér sortna,
sígr fold í mar,
hverfa af himni
heiðar stjörnur;
geisar eimi
ok aldrnari,
leikr hár hiti
við himin sjálfan.

Geyr nú Garmr mjök
fyr Gnípahelli;
festr man slitna,
en freki renna.

-----------------

Sol mun svartna,
sig jord i hav,
av himmelen kverv
klåre stjernor.
Eimen gøyser,
og elden sleikjer.
Logar leikar
lukt til himmels.

Garm gøyr høgt
føre Gnipaheller,
festet slitnar,
og Freke han renn.
 
Originally posted by Somber Soul
No "old" language is intelligible for modern speakers just like that, even if some words do look similar.
Not true. I dare you to look at Old Icelandic and Modern Icelandic. Difference? Modern Icelandic has removed a few of Old Icelandic's letter combinations, to make them gramatically correct, and an ending or two is different... plus the vocabulary has expanded (although all modern vocabulary additions, such as 'computer', 'calculator' etc. are made up from old words. 'computer' for example is 'tölva', a word which wasn't used in Old Icelandic, but which means 'number prophet').

...Old Icelandic texts are rarely translated into "Modern Icelandic" for the Icelandic audience.


(edit: That's just an example, though...I assume that when you say 'old', you don't mean languages which haven't really changed more than it's way of writing for the past 2000 years, but a so called 'dead' language, according to dictionaries).
 
Well. I think we have to differentiate here. It is true that Iceland is an extraordinarily conservative language and hasn't undergone significant changes since the Middle Ages as far as I know. However, this is a very contained linguistic phenomenon. It is possible that there are also other languages in the world which have stayed approximately the same over an unusually long period of time. But the normal linguistic language change will in 95% of all cases make one and the same language when examined at two very removed points in time almost not intelligible for the respective speakers of that time. I believe that the special situation for Iceland can be traced back to the fact that we're talking about a somewhat remote island. Great Britain is an island, too. But it has always been in the centre of attention and thus has been subjected to many outside linguistic influences. So what I'm saying is this: Icelandic is an (explicabe) exception and not the rule. Therefore one can say that generally the farther the temporal distance, the less intelligible a language will become. And languages all over Europe and beyond will prove this. Unfortunately, I don't have any inside details on Icelandic. I have only been concerned with the West Germanic languages so far. But I find it difficult to believe that even if there has been no significant grammatical and orthographical change, the semantics have stayed the same. Because semantic change most of the time comes from within the language community. And this type of change happens much faster than the grammatical or orthographical ones. Semantic changes are happening right now. Words change their meanings all the time.

That's just an example, though...I assume that when you say 'old', you don't mean languages which haven't really changed more than it's way of writing for the past 2000 years, but a so called 'dead' language, according to dictionaries.

By "old" I mean language states that are no longer in existence. I should have been clearer on that. I very much doubt that there is a language which hasn't changed in anything but orthography over the time period of 2000 years. That's not how it usually works. At least, I'd be very surprised. And I've dug deep into historical linguistics. :)
 
Standarized Nynorsk is very different form many dialects, and there in the oldest living dialects there are much of both words and grammar that are more similar to norse than both standarized Nynorsk and Bokmål. Him as an object is "ham" in Bokmål. In norse it's "honom". Standarized Nynorsk uses "han", while in halling dialect, it's "hono".

Originally posted by The Nomad
If you're comfortable with the common linguistic shifts in languages, it does make comprehending old texts easier, but it definately would be a slow read.

That word was very easy, cause though I say "mat", in the south of Norway (and in Denmark) they say "mad". Very similar. Differences like these are not only differences from one age to another, but they live at the same time: There are differences like these in different dialects. Most norwegians are used to this, and will recognize one word in another dialect although it's different, and therefore it's also easier to understand what old words mean.

Although modern Icelandic and old Icelandic is about the same written, there are small chances that it sounds the same, just like there are small chanses norse sounded like modern Icelandic. Norse and old icelandic might have sounded about the same, but who knows if it did? After all, western norwegian dialects sounds nothing like eastern norwegian dialects, or northern for that matter! That is impossible to say!
 
everyone should read Hávamál it’s so much wisdom and guidance

< It is true that Iceland is an extraordinarily conservative language and hasn't undergone significant changes since the Middle Ages as far as I know.>

well of course it has gone through changes but less than other scandinavian languages
the country was very isolated until WWII

I love reading the Sagas the language style is sooo cool! I understand 99,9% of it


don´t forget faroese, it's just brilliant!

we say matur in Iceland
 
I think there are more poems though

1.
The man who stands at a strange threshold,
Should be cautious before he cross it,
Glance this way and that:
Who knows beforehand what foes may sit
Awaiting him in the hall?
2.
Greetings to the host,
The guest has arrived,
In which seat shall he sit?
Rash is he who at unknown doors
Relies on his good luck.

3.
Fire is needed by the newcomer
Whose knees are frozen numb;
Meat and clean linen a man needs
Who has fared across the fells.

4.
Water, too, that he may wash before eating,
Handcloth's and a hearty welcome,
Courteous words, then courteous silence
That he may tell his tale.

5.
Who travels widely needs his wits about him,
The stupid should stay at home:
The ignorant man is often laughed at
When he sits at meat with the sage.

6.
Of his knowledge a man should never boast,
Rather be sparing of speech
When to his house a wiser comes:
Seldom do those who are silent
Make mistakes; mother wit
Is ever a faithful friend.

7.
A guest should be courteous
When he comes to the table
And sit in wary silence,
His ears attentive, his eyes alert:
So he protects himself.

8.
Fortunate is he who is favoured in his lifetime
With praise and words of wisdom:
Evil counsel is often given
By those of evil heart.

9.
Blessed is he who in his own lifetime
Is awarded praise and wit,
For ill counsel is often given
By mortal men to each other.

10.
Better gear than good sense
A traveller cannot carry,
Better than riches for a wretched man,
Far from his own home.

11.
Better gear than good sense
A traveller cannot carry,
A more tedious burden than too much drink
A traveller cannot carry.

12.
Less good than belief would have it
Is mead for the sons of men:
A man knows less the more he drinks,
Becomes a befuddled fool.

13.
I-forget is the name men give the heron
Who hovers over the fast:
Fettered I was in his feathers that night,
When a guest in Gunnlod's court.

14.
Drunk I got, dead drunk,
When Fjalar the wise was with me:
Best is the banquet one looks back on after,
And remembers all that happened.

15.
Silence becomes the Son of a prince,
To be silent but brave in battle:
It befits a man to be merry and glad
Until the day of his death.

16.
The coward believes he will live forever
If he holds back in the battle,
But in old age he shall have no peace
Though spears have spared his limbs.

17.
When he meets friends, the fool gapes,
Is shy and sheepish at first,
Then he sips his mead and immediately
All know what an oaf he is.

18.
He who has seen and suffered much,
And knows the ways of the world,
Who has travelled, can tell what spirit
Governs the men he meets.

19.
Drink your mead, but in moderation,
Talk sense or be silent:
No man is called discourteous who goes
To bed at an early hour.

20.
A gluttonous man who guzzles away
Brings sorrow on himself:
At the table of the wise he is taunted often,
Mocked for his bloated belly.

21.
The herd knows its homing time,
And leaves the grazing ground:
But the glutton never knows how much
His belly is able to hold.

22.
An ill tempered, unhappy man
Ridicules all he hears,
Makes fun of others, refusing always
To see the faults in himself.

23.
Foolish is he who frets at night,
And lies awake to worry'
A weary man when morning comes,
He finds all as bad as before.

24.
The fool thinks that those who laugh
At him are all his friends,
Unaware when he sits with wiser men
How ill they speak of him.

25.
The fool thinks that those who laugh
At him are all his friends:
When he comes to the Thing and calls for support,
Few spokesmen he finds.

26.
The fool who fancies he is full of wisdom
While he sits by his hearth at home.
Quickly finds when questioned by others.
That he knows nothing at all.

27.
The ignorant booby had best be silent
When he moves among other men,
No one will know what a nit-wit he is
Until he begins to talk;
No one knows less what a nit-wit he is
Than the man who talks too much.

28.
To ask well, to answer rightly,
Are the marks of a wise man:
Men must speak of men's deeds,
What happens may not be hidden.

29.
Wise is he not who is never silent,
Mouthing meaningless words:
A glib tongue that goes on chattering
Sings to its own harm.

30.
A man among friends should not mock another:
Many believe the man
Who is not questioned to know much
And so he escapes their scorn.

31.
The wise guest has his way of dealing
With those who taunt him at table:
He smiles through the meal,
Not seeming to hear
The twaddle talked by his foes.

32.
The fastest friends may fall out
When they sit at the banquet-board:
It is, and shall be, a shameful thing
When guest quarrels with guest.

33.
An early meal a man should take
Before he visits friends,
Lest, when he gets there, he go hungry,
Afraid to ask for food.

34.
To a false friend the footpath winds
Though his house be on the highway.
To a sure friend there is a short cut,
Though he live a long way off.

35.
The tactful guest will take his leave
Early, not linger long:
He starts to stink who outstays his welcome
In a hall that is not his own.

36.
A small hut of one's own is better,
A man is his master at home:
A couple of goats and a corded roof
Still are better than begging.

37.
A small hut of one's own is better,
A man is his master at home:
His heart bleeds in the beggar who must
Ask at each meal for meat.

38.
A wayfarer should not walk unarmed,
But have his weapons to hand:
He knows not when he may need a spear,
Or what menace meet on the road.

39.
No man is so generous he will jib at accepting
A gift in return for a gift,
No man so rich that it really gives him
Pain to be repaid.

40.
Once he has won wealth enough,
A man should not crave for more:
What he saves for friends, foes may take;
Hopes are often liars.

41.
With presents friends should please each other,
With a shield or a costly coat:
Mutual giving makes for friendship,
So long as life goes well.

42.
A man should be loyal through life to friends,
To them and to friends of theirs,
But never shall a man make offer
Of friendship to his foes.

43.
A man should be loyal through life to friends,
And return gift for gift,
Laugh when they laugh, but with lies repay
A false foe who lies.

44.
If you find a friend you fully trust
And wish for his good-will,
exchange thoughts, exchange gifts,
Go often to his house.

45.
If you deal with another you don't trust
But wish for his good-will,
Be fair in speech but false in thought
And give him lie for lie.

46.
Even with one you ill-trust
And doubt what he means to do,
False words with fair smiles
May get you the gift you desire.

47.
Young and alone on a long road,
Once I lost my way:
Rich I felt when I found another;
Man rejoices in man.

48.
The generous and bold have the best lives,
Are seldom beset by cares,
But the base man sees bogies everywhere
And the miser pines for presents.

49.
Two wooden stakes stood on the plain,
On them I hung my clothes:
Draped in linen, they looked well born,
But, naked, I was a nobody.

50.
The young fir that falls and rots
Having neither needles nor bark,
So is the fate of the friendless man:
Why should he live long?

51.
Hotter than fire among false hearts burns
Friendship for five days,
But suddenly slackens when the sixth dawns:
Feeble their friendship then.

52.
A kind word need not cost much,
The price of praise can be cheap:
With half a loaf and an empty cup
I found myself a friend.

53.
Little a sand-grain, little a dew drop,
Little the minds of men
All men are not equal in wisdom,
The half-wise are everywhere.

54.
It is best for man to be middle-wise,
Not over cunning and clever:
The fairest life is led by those
Who are deft at all they do.

55.
It is best for man to be middle-wise,
Not over cunning and clever:
No man is able to know his future,
So let him sleep in peace.

56.
It is best for man to be middle-wise,
Not over cunning and clever:
The learned man whose lore is deep
Is seldom happy at heart.

57.
Brand kindles brand till they burn out,
Flame is quickened by flame:
One man from another is known by his speech
The simpleton by his silence.

58.
Early shall he rise who has designs
On anothers land or life:
His prey escapes the prone wolf,
The sleeper is seldom victorious.

59.
Early shall he rise who rules few servants,
And set to work at once:
Much is lost by the late sleeper,
Wealth is won by the swift.

60.
A man should know how many logs
And strips of bark from the birch
To stock in autumn, that he may have enough
Wood for his winter fires.

61.
Washed and fed, one may fare to the Thing:
Though one's clothes be the worse for Wear,
None need be ashamed of his shoes or hose,
Nor of the horse he owns,
Although no thoroughbred.

62.
As the eagle who comes to the ocean shore,
Sniffs and hangs her head,
Dumfounded is he who finds at the Thing
No supporters to plead his case.

63.
It is safe to tell a secret to one,
Risky to tell it to two,
To tell it to three is thoughtless folly,
Everyone else will know.

64.
Moderate at council should a man be,
Not brutal and over bearing:
Among the bold the bully will find
Others as bold as he.

66.
Too early to many homes I came,
Too late, it seemed, to some:
The ale was finished or else un-brewed,
The unpopular cannot please.

67.
Some would invite me to visit their homes,
But none thought I needed a meal,
As though I had eaten a whole joint,
Just before with a friend who had two.

68.
These things are thought the best:
Fire, the sight of the sun,
Good health with the gift to keep it,
And a life that avoids vice.

69.
Not all sick men are utterly wretched:
Some are blessed with sons,
Some with friends, some with riches,
Some with worthy works.

70.
It is always better to be alive,
The living can keep a cow.
Fire, I saw, warming a wealthy man,
With a cold corpse at his door.

71.
The halt can manage a horse,
the handless a flock,
The deaf be a doughty fighter,
To be blind is better than to burn on a pyre:
There is nothing the dead can do.

72.
A son is a blessing, though born late
To a father no longer alive:
Stones would seldom stand by the highway
If sons did not set them there.

73.
Often words uttered to another
Have reaped an ill harvest:
Two beat one, the tongue is head's bane,
Pockets of fur hide fists.

74.
He welcomes the night who has enough provisions
Short are the sails of a ship,
Dangerous the dark in autumn,
The wind may veer within five days,
And many times in a month.

75.
The half wit does not know that gold
Makes apes of many men:
One is rich, one is poor,
There is no blame in that.

76.
Cattle die, kindred die,
Every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies
Of one who has done well.

77.
Cattle die, kindred die,
Every man is mortal:
But I know one thing that never dies,
The glory of the great dead.
 
Just as an aside to this thread:
I will enroll for Skandinavistik (Scandinavian Studies) this semester (starting in October). It's just a diversion and mainly for fun while I'm still finishing my main course of studies. The first language I'll learn is Swedish. I might pick up Icelandic later. Eventually, I will do Old Norse.