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Dak

mentat
Aug 9, 2008
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Among the Horrors
Interesting, cheers. He didn't, you're right... he more sort of pointed a current one in a different direction. You've got the Disciples and Paul to thank for Christianity... I'm not a massive fan of the organised church as it is in its current state, but oh well this is off topic.

Throwing my response in here so as not to derail the other thread.

From everything that I have read/my belief is that Jesus didn't give a new direction. What he was doing was fulfilling the Father's plan, and he followed the Torah entirely (that is being without sin).

What he was speaking out against was the Pharisaical Judiasm, which is nothing more than another man made religion. They have the rabbi-written Talmud, which they place higher than Torah.

Christianity twists the words of "Jesus" that he speaks in reference to the "tradition(s) of the elders" to mean He was anti-Torah. That is rediculous if you realize that "Jesus" had to follow Torah perfectly to be sinless, since sin is transgression of Torah.

When the Pharisees/Sadducees were accusing Him of sinning, he wasn't breaking Torah, he was breaking the traditions and rules in the "Oral Law" (Talmud).

Judaism was not created by the "God of the Old Testament" and Christianity was not created by "Jesus, the God of the New Testament. Both are man made religions with bits and pieces from the Bible woven in

YHWH/Yeshua are one entity with the same plans and instruction. Yeshua could not have been contradicting YHWH or he would have been a false prophet/messiah.


Paul and the disciples did not create Christianity, Paul followed Torah as did the other disciples. Christianity as we see it today came from the very group the writers of the NT warned against; The "Nicolaitans". They taught that just having an intellectual knowledge of God/Jesus was saving, and Grace gave free license to do whatever you want.

The First Council of Nicaea created an organized man made religion that was an amalgamation of misinterpetated passages from the NT and a wide slew of pagan practices, for the purpose of consolidating Constantine's power and bridging the diversity of his common people.

Since then Christianity has splintered into hundreds of sub-religions and denominations. None of which believe in following the entire scripture.
 
I think that is mostly all pretty standard biblical truth

...

From everything that I have read/my belief is that Jesus didn't give a new direction. What he was doing was fulfilling the Father's plan, and he followed the Torah entirely (that is being without sin).

But I think there was, in fact, a new direction which resulted in Jesus Fulfilling the law, and being the sacrifice, once for all. It was made entirely clear that nobody can save themselves through following the law. The law, which could never save anyone, was no longer viewed as the way to righteousness. Rather it was that which made clear that nobody could obtain righteousness themselves, through their own behavior.

Christianity twists the words of "Jesus" that he speaks in reference to the "tradition(s) of the elders" to mean He was anti-Torah. That is rediculous if you realize that "Jesus" had to follow Torah perfectly to be sinless, since sin is transgression of Torah.

Are you saying that sin is strictly defined by "transgression of Torah"?
 
Cheers for the clarification Dakryn. Its sparked up a couple of questions though :)

1. Do you follow/adhere to the laws in the OT? Leviticus etc. Cleanliness and purification? Kosher diet?

2. What are your viewpoints on the new commandments Jesus gives in the NT? "To love one another as I have loved you" - is he implementing new law? Or is this already in the Torah?

3. How much do you place on the validity of the bible? Creationism etc. ?
 
I think that is mostly all pretty standard biblical truth



But I think there was, in fact, a new direction which resulted in Jesus Fulfilling the law, and being the sacrifice, once for all. It was made entirely clear that nobody can save themselves through following the law. The law, which could never save anyone, was no longer viewed as the way to righteousness. Rather it was that which made clear that nobody could obtain righteousness themselves, through their own behavior.

Yes, no one is can save themselves through obedience to Torah
since everyone has/will sin (Romans 3:23) and we have the "sin nature" in us anyway because of the sin of Adam/Eve.

However, although Jesus was a fulfillment of the law (Torah), what does that mean?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.

Fulfill can't mean it was done away with, because that is the same as destroying it. What Jesus did by fulfilling the law/prophets was to give it real meaning and purpose. Without His blood, all the rest of it is for naught.


Are you saying that sin is strictly defined by "transgression of Torah"?

That what the Bible says:

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Torah is the law.

Now, to be clear, I do believe that YHWH has additional instructions for individuals that he lets them know of. I know he has told me things to do/not do that aren't in the Bible, but those are specific to me and my situation, they aren't for everyone to do and they don't contradict or crossover written scripture. I believe that is what is meant, to a degree, by:

Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.




Cheers for the clarification Dakryn. Its sparked up a couple of questions though

1. Do you follow/adhere to the laws in the OT? Leviticus etc. Cleanliness and purification? Kosher diet?

2. What are your viewpoints on the new commandments Jesus gives in the NT? "To love one another as I have loved you" - is he implementing new law? Or is this already in the Torah?

3. How much do you place on the validity of the bible? Creationism etc. ?

#1. I do as much as I can. There is much that cannot be done or does not apply right now because there is no Temple. There will be a Temple during the "Millenium" and the entire earth will be following the Torah (read the Major/Minor prophets, so much interesting prophecy in there about the "end times").

The cleanliness and purification was specifically for the ability to entire the temple grounds, but it lets you know what YHWH considers clean and best for you. Most of it was very practical (like washing and not touching dead bodies or disease etc).

I do follow the dietary laws as much as I can. Kosher meat is not very readily available but you can achieve almost the same thing by cooking meat to a state of well done. (To not eat the blood)

I do not eat things forbidden (like pork, shellfish, etc).Besides it being "sin", I figure that if YHWH made it and said don't eat it, there has to be a reason it is bad for humans.
If you look at the list of stuff not to eat, it seems pretty obvious. Carrion/garbage eaters, bottom feeders, carnivores, etc etc.

#2. I believe it is explaining the "attitude" of the Torah.
Torah is for our good, and to treat others with their good in mind is just passing on the love YHWH has shown us, not only in Torah but in things that are specific to us on a daily basis, and His future return.

#3. I believe in Creation 100%. I do not, however, necessarily believe in the complete view of "creationists". I think there is the potential that all the fossils we find that date hundreds of thousands of years ago may actually be that old, but are from previous civilizations/creations on this earth. Kind of a "Gap Theory" but instead of evolution being in the gap, there was unwritten history of creations/catastrophes prior to our current existence of 6-10,000 years.

I've done some digging into teachings on the Nephilim and "demons/aliens" and it is pretty interesting stuff, and it deals with the other beings/forces that are out there that YHWH created prior to "Creation", and that have a lot of influence on things that happen here and have throughout history.
 
sorry guys, but what's this YHWH?? Dakryn, your believes are almost similar to Islam (not eating pork, washing and so on)

YHWH

Yes there are some similarities in those things, which I consider to be kind of "common sense". Don't eat dirty animals and stay clean so you don't get sick etc.