"God gave his only son..."

[Kenneth R.]

he felt the pain of the humanity and the weight of their sin. he, as you said, could know what was to come. he knew what would befall them, and sacrificed himself to avert that future. since God loves his creation, it pained him to see them destroying themselves and turning from his guidance and friendship. further, it pained him to give a part of himself to show humanity the sincerity of his compassion and grant them a second chance.

 

[JColtrane]

It might have come off as religious arrogance, but what it really is is a person that doesn't like to see his religion misrepresented.
Soundmaster, in response to your last post:
Just because God is not completely explained and His nature is transcendent of human beings does not make Christianity an un-"viable option". That God is a mystery, that God's nature is transcendent of human beings is an essential part of what makes Him God. Therefore, I don't see a mystery involving God as anything negative to the concept of God.
Now here is one of the mysterys: Christ was at the same time both fully human and fully divine. Of course, there is really no need to discuss if He felt pain exactly as a human feels--on the cross, Christ bore the punishment for all sin, and if that wasn't pain or suffering I don't know what is.

 

[Øjeblikket]

It might have come off as religious arrogance, but what it really is is a person that doesn't like to see his religion misrepresented.
Soundmaster, in response to your last post:
Just because God is not completely explained and His nature is transcendent of human beings does not make Christianity an un-"viable option". That God is a mystery, that God's nature is transcendent of human beings is an essential part of what makes Him God. Therefore, I don't see a mystery involving God as anything negative to the concept of God.
Now here is one of the mysterys: Christ was at the same time both fully human and fully divine. Of course, there is really no need to discuss if He felt pain exactly as a human feels--on the cross, Christ bore the punishment for all sin, and if that wasn't pain or suffering I don't know what is.

Let me see if I follow this:

1) The nature of God is a mystery because such a nature transcends the understanding of humans. This transcendental nature is what makes God God. Somehow, we are able to acknowledge both of those sentences as being true.

2) Christ was a human that was fully divine. This fully human and totally divine person was punished for, according to him and his posse, all of sin.

3) Coltrane does not enjoy seeing his religion misrepresented.

Now, let's see if we can fathom any sort of order:

1) If proposition 1 from above were true, of what use is our attempt to define God as a trinity?

2) If Christ was God as Christ, and then died for the sins he allows us to own through our free will, why is God's magic so hokey and pathetic? He loves us? But wait, God transcends us, right? We resolve therefore to be his sandbox play things?

3) It's not really your religion, it is rather the religion you willfully choose to follow. Try blowing it off, 'cause this thread is starting to read like some mad cult conspiracy.

 

[JColtrane]

Notice that I did not say God is completley transcendent. Being a Christian, that is obviously not the argument that I would make--I think that God can be known through revelation, but of course never fully comprehended.

And about the cult thing, I do live in Waco

 

[Kenneth R.]

i do not like my beliefs misunderstood as well. in fact, i don't think any of you would either, and that is why we have these clarifying discussions.

note Øjeblikket: that Christ was not "punished" for our sins, he sacrificed himself in our place. he spared us that punishment. God bore him no punishment. Jesus knew what lay ahead, yet made no attempts to avert his forseen death. why? he chose to sacrifice himself for us, as we have choices in life.

 

[Disciple of the Watch]

But if Christ is one part of Trinity, wich is God, then how is it logical that a God sacrifices a part of himself just to spare the creatures that he created of punishment that he would made to those creatures?

I think that the writers of Bible had a great sense of Drama...

 

[Kenneth R.]

already told you... he did it for love of his creation. instead of the justice they deserved, Christ took our place.

 

[Disciple of the Watch]

Hmmm... Wouldn`t it be just easier to forgive them, without creating and torturing?
And if Jesus knew what is going to be, then God knows what will be, then where is there a point in his work? He knows what will happen tomorrow, he knows what choice will you make, so infact he already made that choice for you so you don`t have free will. If you don`t have free will than what is the point of living anyway? And why did God created us in the first place? Just for fun? And if God created us just for fun, is it possible that he created some other beings in Universe just for fun again?

 

[Lord SteveO]

So God sacrifices his "son" or part of himself to show hummanity what suffering was like and how he thought his creation was comming appart?
If that's the case then why in the earlier bible (old testament) does he simply destroy anywhere that seems to go against his "plan". I mean to start with he destroys cities, creates pagues etc. Why then the sudden change to trying to make us see the suffering we were creating?
And also why would a god this powerful decide the best choice was to make some roundabout means of making us see our suffering as oppose to just telling us all. Surely he could do anything, he wouldn't need a son if he is god.

 

[Lord SteveO]

So God sacrifices his "son" or part of himself to show hummanity what suffering was like and how he thought his creation was comming appart?
If that's the case then why in the earlier bible (old testament) does he simply destroy anywhere that seems to go against his "plan". I mean to start with he destroys cities, creates plagues etc. Why then the sudden change to trying to make us see the suffering we were creating?
And also why would a god this powerful decide the best choice was to make some roundabout means of making us see our suffering as oppose to just telling us all. Surely he could do anything, he wouldn't need a son if he is god.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Hmmm... Wouldn`t it be just easier to forgive them, without creating and torturing?
And if Jesus knew what is going to be, then God knows what will be, then where is there a point in his work? He knows what will happen tomorrow, he knows what choice will you make, so infact he already made that choice for you so you don`t have free will. If you don`t have free will than what is the point of living anyway? And why did God created us in the first place? Just for fun? And if God created us just for fun, is it possible that he created some other beings in Universe just for fun again?

1. easier, but not "right". God wanted Justice, and Jesus was forgiveness for humanity.

2. He knows all yes... however our choices change what will be. no one knows if he has sway over choice, but christianity believes in some "guidance".

3. the point of life is, according to christianity, to praise and glorify God and his work, to better ourselves, and through our choices and actions, show our true worth to him (again glorifying through goodness or showing our corruption).

4. who knows if we are alone in the universe.

 

[Kenneth R.]

So God sacrifices his "son" or part of himself to show hummanity what suffering was like and how he thought his creation was comming appart?
If that's the case then why in the earlier bible (old testament) does he simply destroy anywhere that seems to go against his "plan". I mean to start with he destroys cities, creates plagues etc. Why then the sudden change to trying to make us see the suffering we were creating?
And also why would a god this powerful decide the best choice was to make some roundabout means of making us see our suffering as oppose to just telling us all. Surely he could do anything, he wouldn't need a son if he is god.

why destroy when you can repair? by showing our faults, he grants us the chance to mend them.

why wouldn't he just say "you're all being bad, stop it now or i'll flood you again"? i would say because he wanted to see the faith of humanity, or lack of it. by sending Jesus he tested us to see if we believed in him, and that required faith. if he had just come out and spoke to everyone, would not everyone wait upon his every word and guidance, unable to think for themselves? this way, he doesn't have to show himself and literally tell everyone what to do or think all the time, he allows us to choose on our own, and only guides from unseen ways...

 

[SoundMaster]

i would say because he wanted to see the faith of humanity, or lack of it. by sending Jesus he tested us to see if we believed in him, and that required faith. if he had just come out and spoke to everyone, would not everyone wait upon his every word and guidance, unable to think for themselves? this way, he doesn't have to show himself and literally tell everyone what to do or think all the time, he allows us to choose on our own, and only guides from unseen ways...

Then, God must be quite upset today, right? (if a supreme being can even feel such a dreadful human quality; being "perfect", anger makes no sense).

How much of the earth's population believes in Jesus? Let's look at the faithful, leaving the few atheists out of it.

The Jews don't - obviously. Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, "practitioners" of the Force (from Star Wars)? No. Nor do folks of any other faith sans Islam. And they only accept Jesus as one of the prophets, but surely not as God.

Gee, their loss when their sentenced to Hell, right? Being born and growing up in, say, India, leaves you little chance of even being exposed to the idea of Christianity - particularly before a Western presence was felt.
If they have no way of even knowing about the Christian story, tough luck, right? God is an angry God and exacts retribution...

 

[Disciple of the Watch]

1. Right to who? To Jews (since it is their Mesiah at first)
2. Sounds to me that christians have no guts to think for themselves or to do anything for themselves
3. So my point in life is to bow before an icon and to pray if some dude will grant me enough attention and forgivness to forgive me for the sin that my ancestor did?
4. Oh, you do think for yourself?

 

[Forest of Åsatrú]

The story that the bible gives is that if you seek God, you will find him. It means if you truly want a God of your life, he will reveal himself to you. So apparently you're supposed to transcend all other religions and say" wait a second, my religions wrong. I feel somethings missing, I think my religon is bullshit." There has only been one man in documented history to ever do this... I believe his name was Socrates. So there's basically no chance that those fine people in India will "go to heaven." So I guess heaven will be full of priviledged white people and a minority of colors. fun fun.....

 

[Iridium]

God sacrificed his own son on the cross to save his own creation from his own wrath. Sounds like a schizophrenic lunatic to me. Also, consider the following scenario: six guys have been charged with a variety of crimes, so the benevolent judge decides to sacrifice a completely innocent man so that somehow the six will atone for their crimes. RIDICULOUS! Finally, sacrifice implies the loss of something permanent/ly. The only thing sacrificed was Jesus' comfort for a few days (with that crucifixion and all), something that hundreds of thousands of men at that time had suffered. However, since they did not know of Christ or his teachings, they just got sent straight to Limbo (or worse!), whereas Jesus got right back up to heaven.

Is this not the most ridiculous thing in the world? Especially to convince us that he somehow actually sacrificed something worthwhile. A crucifixion to God in man's form should be less than a mosquito bite for us. Also, why the need to sacrifice? Why is it necessary? An omnibenevolent, omnipotent God certainly should not be inclined to sacrifice.

 

[Kenneth R.]

you are all seeing it from a human perspective, and i can hardly fault you for that...

 

[Iridium]

In other words, "Never mind rational explanations! Our human minds could never grasp the (lack of) logic behind Christianity!" It's okay, I understand. Wait, let me guess: while you can sympathize with our human perspectives, you have a unique, divine perspective, which is why you can empathize with God! Am I right? Or do you, too, have only a human perspective to offer?

 

[SoundMaster]

Is this not the most ridiculous thing in the world? Especially to convince us that he somehow actually sacrificed something worthwhile. A crucifixion to God in man's form should be less than a mosquito bite for us. Also, why the need to sacrifice? Why is it necessary? An omnibenevolent, omnipotent God certainly should not be inclined to sacrifice.

Incredibly ridiculous, indeed.

 

[Lord SteveO]

I would have to agree that Iridium puts forward a pretty good argument.
Supposing that judge decided to sacrifice his own son to show the criminals how they were wrong. That would be very similar to what God did but it would never have the desired effect!
Secondly, as has already been said how does sacrifice show us how God felt or gow we are wrong. It really is like a human being bitten by a bug. Now if God had trully sacrificed Jesus, part of himself, then that aspect of him should have ceased to exist. A true sacrifice wouldn't be resurected weeks later to says it's goodbyes!

One other thing that makes little sense about the whole argument is how is this sacrifice taking place in the middle east supposed to be "saving" humans living on the other side of the planet who have no idea who this Jesus guy is?