Free Will

[JColtrane]

My opinion on this is pretty simple: As humans, from our perspective, we have free will. Whether we actually do or not, i'm not sure. All I know is that I live as if I do have free will, so for me to believe that I do not is rather pointless.

 

[speed]

So far in 41 years, I think I "know" one thing : the only thing I have to do is die...everything else is a choice.

I made my past choices based on both "nature" (the situation I was born into along with my genetic template) and the controlling interests of those who had power over me and my existence ("nurture", if you will). Depending on where you live, who you live with, and how much control they have over you and yours, your choices may seem limited, but they are choices nonetheless. And if I'm to remain sane and relatively harmless to those around me, I must believe in free will, or I will go out and choose to kill some people who have had more than their share of control over me and those I love. Regardless of whether or not there exists a higher being who has interest and/or control over my life, I must be able to tell my loved ones that I love them and make my choices without regret or remorse. Until I'm dead, as far as I know, I die alone.

Nice statement, I totally agree with you man. And I also agree with AnonNick on this one.

 

[unknown]

Whether we have free will or not is irrelevant. I believe we have free will, because for events and actions to be predetermined, there has to be something controlling these events and actions. What would control these things? A god, perhaps? But because I don't believe in gods, I don't believe things can be predetermined. If there is a god who has already decided each of our fates, then there's no use worrying about it, because we can't help ourselves. If this god created a heaven or hell for humans to go to when they died, it'd be choosing each humans final destination, therefore creating a pointless system. Take the Christian religion for example. Christians believe that their god has granted them free will, yet they also believe in prophecies and that their god knows everything, including each human's choices in life. If a prophecy can come true, then we do not have free will. For example, if the nations of the world were to go into nuclear war and all life on Earth (at least human) were destroyed, then the Christian prophecies of Revelations could never come true. But if the Christian god keeps things like this in check, he is not giving humans free will, therefore dooming certain individuals to Hell and blessing others with Heaven (by his choice). Also, if a god knew our every choice in life and ultimate destination in an "afterlife", our actions would be predetermined and therefore, we couldn't truly choose our own path.

a very cogent argument which I agree wholeheartedly with

 

[speed]

^^^yes well the whole predestination thing and divine plan is rather calvinist, but yeah it is pretty much a carry over from the jewish old testament and paganism. I agree it is a totally untenable theological argument for any Christian. I blame the early church for not totally seperating Christianity from Judaism.

 

[NeverIsForever]

People want to believe that there is more to a human than it appears; they'll look for anything to validate their belief that they have some immortal part of them...but everybody dies. Nobody likes hearing that they are just a speck on a speck of a planet in a speck of a galaxy, but then it's not an easy concept for us to grasp; in fact it goes against our built-in self-preservation instinct. What if death is just...death? Nothing. Do you remember anything from before you were born? Of course not...doesn't sound so bad to me, considering the alternatives most major world religions offer...

Excellent point. I would argue that this is the reason people created religion in the first place--out of the desire to believe that the realm beyond death holds something other than eternal oblivion...

 

[JColtrane]

^^^yes well the whole predestination thing and divine plan is rather calvinist, but yeah it is pretty much a carry over from the jewish old testament and paganism. I agree it is a totally untenable theological argument for any Christian. I blame the early church for not totally seperating Christianity from Judaism.

The early church was actually a sect of Judaism. People like Paul and other members of the early church still went to the temple and were practicing Jews. Also, Christ, the centerpiece of the Christian faith, was a practicing Jew and used a good amount of Jewish scripture in his sermons and parables. You can cite the book of Hebrews for how Christians understand the Old Testament in relation to the New Testament.
For a highly interesting discussion of free will as viewed by a Christian, you can read The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoevsky and also Ralph C. Wood's article on it, "Ivan Karamazov's Mistake".

 

[unknown]

Excellent point. I would argue that this is the reason people created religion in the first place--out of the desire to believe that the realm beyond death holds something other than eternal oblivion...

I would agree with you. I believe one of the main aspects of religion is to instill people with hope that there is something after this life....so that people will be productive and good

 

[speed]

The early church was actually a sect of Judaism. People like Paul and other members of the early church still went to the temple and were practicing Jews. Also, Christ, the centerpiece of the Christian faith, was a practicing Jew and used a good amount of Jewish scripture in his sermons and parables. You can cite the book of Hebrews for how Christians understand the Old Testament in relation to the New Testament.
For a highly interesting discussion of free will as viewed by a Christian, you can read The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoevsky and also Ralph C. Wood's article on it, "Ivan Karamazov's Mistake".

I meant the catholic church when they decided to accept the Old Testament into the canon. And lets not forget, the christianity of Paul, is mch different than the chrisitianity of Christ. And I dare say Paul was a much more important figure than Christ.

In fact one of the most interesting figures in early church history was a Greek named Marcion. IF one searches the catholic encyclopedia, one will notice they style Marcion the greatest threat ever to the Christian faith.

Marcion basically styled the Jewish god as evil for abandoning his son etc, and Jesus represented the new god of light and goodness. THus Marcion created the first christian canon comprised of passages from Luke, and selected letters from Paul. Marcion was one of the richest men of the age, and he had more followers in the 2nd century than the catholic church.

 

[JColtrane]

I meant the catholic church when they decided to accept the Old Testament into the canon. And lets not forget, the christianity of Paul, is mch different than the chrisitianity of Christ. And I dare say Paul was a much more important figure than Christ.

In fact one of the most interesting figures in early church history was a Greek named Marcion. IF one searches the catholic encyclopedia, one will notice they style Marcion the greatest threat ever to the Christian faith.

Marcion basically styled the Jewish god as evil for abandoning his son etc, and Jesus represented the new god of light and goodness. THus Marcion created the first christian canon comprised of passages from Luke, and selected letters from Paul. Marcion was one of the richest men of the age, and he had more followers in the 2nd century than the catholic church.

In actuality, Paul handwrote maybe one or two of the letters that we attribute to him (most of them were co-authored), so although I agree his influence is large, it is not as big as people make it out to be in my opinion--his influence is not dominating in the New Testament. Also, I think Paul's teachings are in complete accordance with Christ's--in general that Christ is the sacrificial lamb that cleanses the sins of the world--if you could site specific examples that would help support your argument.

In my opinion, Marcion's thought makes absolutley no sense for the reasons I sighted above--both Christ and Paul were of the Jewish faith. Christ is pictured in Luke and Paul's letters as not destroying the Jewish scripture, but fulfilling it.

 

[Kenneth R.]

agreed ^

 

[AlphaTemplar]

we are the sum of our genes reacting to our environment(and our perception of the environment).

 

[speed]

I still disagree, and I am frankly surprised you are selling Paul so short--there is an excellent book on Paul that discusses all of this, I just cant remember the name right now. Anyway, Paul may have been jewish, but he preached to an entirely pagan audience, with a decidedly christian message thad had few traces of the old testament and judaism. The early jewish christian sects didnt want to preach to non jews; paul was the first to do so. Remember there were a number of jewish sects much like Christianity, it took Paul to reach out to the non Jews to make Chrisitianity popular.


And I mention Marcion as he was the first to attempt to make a total break with Judaism and all of its traditions and myths. He edited Pauls letters and the gospel of Luke to remove any of the jewish influence. And he had a huge number of followers--more for a time than followed the roman based church. I have always found this fascinating. In many ways Marcion created his own religion that is somewhat like Manichaesim.

 

[Kenneth R.]

if you make that argument, you must also realize: neither paul nor marcion would have anything to talk about were it not for Christ.

 

[xxSammaelxx]

I would agree with you. I believe one of the main aspects of religion is to instill people with hope that there is something after this life....so that people will be productive and good

That's what I see God as. I see God as a saviour for the weak. God helps the weak be content to a degree with death, because God will be there in the afterlife, and will look after you and you will be OK. I also see god as a cop-out. When you have almost any (if not all) philosophical questions, they can all be answered with "God created it," thus making it so that most people don't look any deeper. We can't understand the universe, or life for that matter, and some see the world as a desolate hole, where they are nothing, and will always be nothing, because there will always be something greater and better, that they are a speck of dust in this universe, and this scares them, so they invent (all of this is imo) a God that will be their saviour and that reassures them, because when they die, they will be accepted, and they will BE something.

 

[Kenneth R.]

actually when you learn more about christianity, you will find that not everything answers to "God created it". also, you will find that you are encouraged to look deeper and seek meaning yourself. more than that, he is a savior for all, not the weak. you are mistaken in that assumption. the weak and the strong, all die. in that there is no difference. we are mortals. God encourages the strong to show kindness to the weak so they too may become stronger, strengthening all. he is not one who would advocate the destruction of the weak for the "greater good" of the strong, for that only lessens the number of people and killing is sinful.

furthermore, people, as you say, see the world as so vast, the universe as so empty, and their lives as nothing but dust, and so abandon God for their own wills and purposes to achieve power and fame in this world. they fear that when they die, they will be forgotten. thus they strive rabidly to carve their name every place they can, in the dust and in the minds of their fellow people.

you must understand, true christians do not follow God in hopes of an afterlife. they follow him because they believe it is right, and in so doing, simultaneously revoke this world's foolish notions of self-ism and buy-buy-buy greed and fame, to truly live a life of meaning beyond what one owns or knows.

those are my beliefs as a christian, and i politely say you must be more familiar with the religion to discuss it so.

 

[JColtrane]

I agree with SS, there are much better arguments against God than simply that he was invented by the weak to give them hope. For me Christianity is much more than hope in an afterlife, but also a fulfillment of my person as a human being on this earth. For me the purpose of my life rests in God, as opposed to being in myself. I think that this is good because I believe that God created this world and you have true fulfillment as a person when you realize your creator's purpose for you.