Gays can't marry in Cali or whatever.

[NinjaGeek]

Just watched the video, and I agree with his sentiments, but I don't think thats a matter that should be handled by the law. I don't think marriage should be allowed, or banned by the government but stepped away from entirely. The church has the right to deny marriage to Gays for as long as they want, and if Gays have an issue with that they can still hold their own ceremonies and call it marriage if they want. That way the church can just get pissed off at them for mis-using the term instead of having the government label it as a marriage.

 

[NinjaGeek]

Marriage was not originally a religious institution, so sorry. There really is no argument for this that can even be entertained in an intellectual discourse.

I will gladly yield to your point if you give me something more than your word to go on. Though I'm fairly certain that even if marriage did come about before religion or something along those lines, it's been so strongly associated with religion for so long, that it seems easier to me to just leave it as a religious ceremony and allow everyone to be legally joined under some other term.

 

[AchrisK]

Marriage was not originally a religious institution, so sorry. There really is no argument for this that can even be entertained in an intellectual discourse.

Unless you believe that Adam and Eve were the first people, created by God and placed together in a union that would populate the Earth. Not Adam and Steve, Adam and Eve.

But I do not intend to bring that into my discussion of this topic.

----------

But marriage was originally intended as the basic building block of society. The idea of love initiating marriage is FAR removed from the original institution of marriage. Marriage was the basis for how a society maintained or increased its population, and the primary way it took care of its people. Put man and woman together, they have kids, parents take care of their kids, and later their parents. Kids grow up and have kids, and eventually take care of their parents. It's a good system. I think it is worth preserving in its original form. Not to take anything away from gays. Gay relationships are not what I described above. They are primarily love-based relationships. See the difference?

But I do concede that the overall state of marriage in the USA is far removed from what is used to be. I do believe there are still those who believe in what it was intended to be, myself included. Also the whole idea of love not initiating marriage is so foreign to us. But truthfully this shift has not served us well. We have gone so far from the original idea, and have based it all on feelings of love, and not on the deeper choice of love.

 

[King Richard]

Isn't there overwhelming amounts of evidence showing that Adam and Eve weren't the first humans, but infact there were many other types of humans that predate them?

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Christians don't like evidence, or logic. It doesn't go with their incredibly ridiculous beliefs.

Gay relationships are not what I described above. They are primarily love-based relationships.

lmfao.

what the FUCK?!

are you really NOT SEEING WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOUR THINKING HERE. THEY ARE HUMANS. HUMANS DESERVE RIGHTS. GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD BRO!

 

[AchrisK]

Are you not seeing what I said? It was pretty clear. Marriage = societal building block, not necessarily initiated by love. Gay relationship = love relationship. I am talking about the essence of each. They are different. I know the lines are now blurred.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Your logic re: the essence is wrong. Marriage =/= religious term in the sense we are speaking of. Marriage is as much (if not more) of a legal institution in the US.

Also, if marriage isn't initiated by love... I...don't know what to fucking say to you bro.

 

[Alter]

And gays disrupt that "social building block" how? Did blacks disrupt to "social building blocks" government by being able to vote?

 

[AchrisK]

Isn't there overwhelming amounts of evidence showing that Adam and Eve weren't the first humans, but infact there were many other types of humans that predate them?

Well, obviously evolution claims humans existed for however many years, which would predate the Biblical claims (taken literally) of the beginning of the history of the world. Obviously the "proof" is not the same as, say, proof for some observable fact today. It's historically and archaeologically based.

I don't know the answer.

 

[Donnie Darko]

until the dem majority in the house says fuck you.

I dont think that will happen. Gay marriage laws will probably remain as a state law. At least we wont have evangelical right wingers trying to pass a national amendment to ban it based on their religion. For new, it will be in the power of California to uphold or fight to overturn prop 8.

 

[AchrisK]

Your logic re: the essence is wrong. Marriage =/= religious term in the sense we are speaking of. Marriage is as much (if not more) of a legal institution in the US.

Also, if marriage isn't initiated by love... I...don't know what to fucking say to you bro.

No, it's not logic. That is what marriage has always been. Surely there have been variations in societies, but that is the essence of it. I understand things are different today, here. But I also wonder how much of that original essence was in the mind of those who started the USA. Building block of society. It makes sense.

I am making no claims about the religious idea of marriage. You guys keep bringing it up, but I am not.

Surely you know that love has not been the initiator of marriage throughout history. Love develops, but was not the initiator. Marriage has always been the basic building block of society. Do you also not see how we have gone astray on our society by placing too much emphasis on feelings? Love that has true, enduring strength is not a feeling, it is a decision. Do you really not grasp this? The evidence is all around you.

 

[Valerie]

Achrisk is such a good troll that I didn't realize it until now. Good job, you got me.

 

[AchrisK]

No troll.

Just because I think of things from a different perspective doesn't make me a troll.

But I want to say to all of you who may be angry, I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am actually working through the whole thing myself, more deeply than I ever have. I do understand the issue is no black and white thing. I also think California has done a bad job in jerking the gay community (whatever that means) around. Either the court never should have made that change, or there should not have been an initiative. Something. It's not fair to play with people like that.

 

[entanglement]

jerking the gay community

Also, if marriage isn't initiated by love... I...don't know what to fucking say to you bro.

Marriage isn't initiated by love everywhere, no. The still prevalent concept of arranged marriage is alive in many parts of places like India. On the other hand, gay relationships ARE, initiated by love alone. Even in such societies where marriage is sometimes like a business transaction.. no sects or communities fix you up to a marriage with another dude following tradition or something.. if you get the gist. Gays have always been the outsiders.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

That hardly provides any real argument, considering we are talking about marriage in America anyway.

 

[entanglement]

Don't jump out of your pants, it wasn't a counterargument.

edit: ooh ooh in shanghai noon, right? that native chief gives his daughter away to jackie chan for marriage

 

[False Joe]

I'd give my right arm for marriage to jackie chan.

 

[AchrisK]

That hardly provides any real argument, considering we are talking about marriage in America anyway.

It does provide a real argument. It is a valid point which you can see throughout history and evolution. You seem unwilling to understand this.

But you are right that this time and culture comes into the argument as well.

 

[Einherjar86]

Isn't there overwhelming amounts of evidence showing that Adam and Eve weren't the first humans, but infact there were many other types of humans that predate them?

Not really, but it's kind of a moot point to argue anyway. Unfortunately, there was no secular census conducted at the dawn of time where Adam signed "First Man. Oh, and by the way, Eve came from my rib. Git 'er Done!"

And to add to the other debate, marriage existed long before Christianity. Originally, it's most likely that marriage was a political institution. People married off their daughters in hopes of gaining relation to a family of higher status and wealth.

 

[Burning In Hell]

People need to stay out of other peoples personal lives and what they choose to do or not do when it comes to these types of things.