Georgia/Russia

[fistula]

hi guys im from russia... i was watching the news since it's all started from 08.08.08 - both the CNN and the Russian (and European too - euro channel)

the situation is that foreign position is that Russia is invader, its the bad guys. Georgia is a victim - the good guys.
here - the position is that Georgia are bastards, Russia is good.
the European point of view - is in between. no good ones, no bad ones

the thing is that they all taking the same facts and making what they want.

This territory (South Osetia) was the conflict one more than 18 years. the Abhazia has a sea output. so this two places are the strategic.
US are trying to control all the territories near the Russia - so many Military Basses and rocket bases was built in the past 8 years.

I dont think that theres any right ones. Theres a victims. Many people was killed in a really brutal ways. Was it a genocide? yes it was. are the russia right here? no. coz that was political and profit interest. was the us right here? no coz thats the fuckin foreign politics that was at this past 8 years.

oil is shit. the problem.

im not talking about georgia - its a small country. even osetia or abhazia. But i know exactly that russia didnt want to destroy georgia or something - the goal was South Osetia and Abhazia. If you look at the map of battle you'll see that all the main military bases of georgia was destroyed. But the georgia is still on the map.

all i know is that all that is going on now - is not right. The US position is shit. Russian is shit too. but as it was the georgia wh ostarted the war. as it was the georgia who started the war 18 years ago. as it was the georgia who killed the people in a sleeping town. as it was sponsored by US goverment - the bad guy is the US foreign politic. When bombing Iraq is the right thing< bombing yugoslavia is the good thing, bombing afganistan is a good thing - to reach the democracy - but when anyone doing the same thing, even in a smaller versions - thats the bad thing. i dont think its right. both - the bombing - and the position.

 

[grywolf627]

Good to get another perspective of this. And I'm in NO WAY doubting you. It's all still the same game as played after the end of WWII. The big boys trying to divide up the world in whatever way they see fit. Only now, the rules and objective of the game have changed a little...but essentially the same game. With people caught in the middle.

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

Thanks, fistula, very well put!

 

[musickey]

I believe you are right on the mark fistula.

 

[greyskull]

we're fucked (from the 51st state)

 

[Baron of Norsworthy]

Unfortunately our American media seems to think that it's the cold war again, so our news right now on this matter is totally fucked. Can one of you foreigners post and let me really know what's going on there? There are conflicting reports so I don't know what to think. I'm 90% sure this is more BushCo/Oil industry doing but still there are American Georgians here protesting against Russia, so maybe Russia is the bad guy here. I don't know. How valid is Russia's claim that there's a genocide going on here?

BTW you foreigners should listen to our radio broadcasts here, they are a joke, they don't even say why Russia went into Georgia, as if Putin is the terrorist there. Americans now are like Germans in the 30's, we don't question anything, we just kind of go with the flow and turn a blind eye.

Basically we in the UK have been told that South Osetia attacked russia and that russia responded to the attack.

However I think the russian response was to show that russia is still a dominant power.

 

[grywolf627]

Finally, a decent article somewhere. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7586662.stm

While I wouldn't say it's completely unbiased...it's better than most I've been reading. I know we have a few Russian forumites here...like Fistula (who gave a really great commentary). Any other comments or other perspectives? Sorry to drag this out, I just find the WHOLE (I'm not taking any sides here) thing disturbing...and interesting. I'd like to know the REAL agendas behind everything. Yeah...right.

 

[aberration]

"...The Mystery Behind the Georgian Invasion

In this simple chronicle, there is something quite mysterious: Why did the Georgians choose to invade South Ossetia on Thursday night? There had been a great deal of shelling by the South Ossetians of Georgian villages for the previous three nights, but while possibly more intense than usual, artillery exchanges were routine. The Georgians might not have fought well, but they committed fairly substantial forces that must have taken at the very least several days to deploy and supply. Georgia’s move was deliberate.

The United States is Georgia’s closest ally. It maintained about 130 military advisers in Georgia, along with civilian advisers, contractors involved in all aspects of the Georgian government and people doing business in Georgia. It is inconceivable that the Americans were unaware of Georgia’s mobilization and intentions. It is also inconceivable that the Americans were unaware that the Russians had deployed substantial forces on the South Ossetian frontier. U.S. technical intelligence, from satellite imagery and signals intelligence to unmanned aerial vehicles, could not miss the fact that thousands of Russian troops were moving to forward positions. The Russians clearly knew the Georgians were ready to move. How could the United States not be aware of the Russians? Indeed, given the posture of Russian troops, how could intelligence analysts have missed the possibility that the Russians had laid a trap, hoping for a Georgian invasion to justify its own counterattack?

It is very difficult to imagine that the Georgians launched their attack against U.S. wishes. The Georgians rely on the United States, and they were in no position to defy it. This leaves two possibilities. The first is a massive breakdown in intelligence, in which the United States either was unaware of the existence of Russian forces, or knew of the Russian forces but — along with the Georgians — miscalculated Russia’s intentions. The second is that the United States, along with other countries, has viewed Russia through the prism of the 1990s, when the Russian military was in shambles and the Russian government was paralyzed. The United States has not seen Russia make a decisive military move beyond its borders since the Afghan war of the 1970s-1980s. The Russians had systematically avoided such moves for years. The United States had assumed that the Russians would not risk the consequences of an invasion.

If this was the case, then it points to the central reality of this situation: The Russians had changed dramatically, along with the balance of power in the region. They welcomed the opportunity to drive home the new reality, which was that they could invade Georgia and the United States and Europe could not respond. As for risk, they did not view the invasion as risky. Militarily, there was no counter. Economically, Russia is an energy exporter doing quite well — indeed, the Europeans need Russian energy even more than the Russians need to sell it to them. Politically, as we shall see, the Americans needed the Russians more than the Russians needed the Americans. Moscow’s calculus was that this was the moment to strike. The Russians had been building up to it for months, as we have discussed, and they struck..."

The rest of the article is here. http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/russo_georgian_war_and_balance_power

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

Wow, it feels like the 80s again.

 

[fistula]

just to mention - do you know that 80% of the people living in South Osetia are russian citizens? or even more...

i'll try to explain you... but its hard to explain for foreign minds - theres a parts near russia that always was russia. like Krim - that's now Ukraine. There live russian people talking on russian language. There's a people that believes that they're russian. In early 90's there were fast divide of USSR on the different countries. Politics know this facts and play with them as they want. as Osetia doesnt want to live in Georgia.

And yeah i think that europe and US didnt thought that russia can "bark" if you know what i mean. And if you look a little bit righter on the map - do you know what you'll see there? you'll see chechnya. there was war sponsored by US goverment in 96. there were killed many people. many young soldiers - here the army is obligatory. 90% of the dead soldiers just finished their military learning - 19-21 years. simple guys - like you and me. that was really shitty war. inside of russia.

i dont know what is placed in there - but theres something that US want really bad. And russia dont want to give it.

And look at the problem and imagine that you're in past - in 07.august.08: if georgia atacks Osetia - and it will be a sucess - than no one will say anything - coz its inside georgia, its sponsored by US and its what they wants to be - everything's ok and russia looses.
If georgia loose than we can blaim russia - they bastards - they invadered georgia. lets blaim russia. russia looses again - coz everyone hates it now.

I was watching CNN and saw the parallell thing they trying to show - some shit about soviet army, 40-50 years ago. I was shocked - it reminded me a propaganda of that time. brain washing - there were some words about comunism etc... thats really strange.

and as i said above - all that "war game" killed many people. people is the only victim.

 

[grywolf627]

Again...great commentary. Thank you.

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

Yes I know Ossetia is mostly peaceful Russians. But most Americans don't. In fact, we have no legitimate way of knowing that.

 

[fistula]

and yeah - if you look at the oil prices in a war time - what you will see? thats what im talking about... US is a powerfull country - but i think that it doesnt wants to depend on any other country... as for europe - i know that most seen car is the car that uses a little amount of gasoline. as for the US - there are many cars that uses MANY gasoline - with many cylibders etc. as i know in past 4 years the sales of that kind of cars are fall down. why? look at the oil prices.

the US economy now is not in a best years...

and guys - if there will be a WWIII it will be because of arctica - there's a noones lands with A LOT of oil. thats noones oil now. but theres is so much ice in there righ now. but greenhouse effects makes it closer and closer...

[add]

i dont think that you see inside the US the change of prices- but US dollar is felt down very much. very much. like 2/5 of its price since last summer or so

[add add]

and yeah - i was watching interviews and watching the lists of directors of big russian oil companies - and theres many americans. So could be that US fighting with US? sounds strange - but it could be the truth....

 

[musickey]

Very interesting

 

[iekobrid]

Finally, a decent article somewhere. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7586662.stm

Mr Medvedev argued that Russia had been forced to use force to protect its own nationals in South Ossetia.

But Russia has deliberately engineered that situation by handing out Russian passports to large numbers of local inhabitants.

Sweden's normally soft-spoken Foreign Minister Carl Bildt retorted that Russia's resort to that argument echoed that of Hitler in annexing pre-World War Two Czechoslovakia.


Bildt = a member of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, whose executive director is the Georgia lobbyist / McCain* advisor mentioned on the first page of this thread.

* also a CLI member

 

[grywolf627]

...i dont think that you see inside the US the change of prices- but US dollar is felt down very much. very much. like 2/5 of its price since last summer or so...

You feel it here a little. But, we REALLY felt it on our last trip to Romania back in May, to see my wife's parents. Not to mention that the exchange houses aren't even used to seeing U.S. dollars anymore...everyone is exchanging in Euro's these days. Even while we were there, in just a period of 2 weeks...we were watching the dollar value drop almost every day.

And I very much suspect you're right about oil.

 

[grywolf627]

Quote from article on Yahoo news today:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080904/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_us

"KIEV, Ukraine - Vice President Dick Cheney insisted that Georgia will join NATO and backed its attempts to rebuild from its war with Russia on Thursday, using a trip to former Soviet republics as a show of U.S. support for their pro-Western leaders.

Cheney flew to Kiev from Georgia, where he denounced Russia's "illegitimate, unilateral attempt" to redraw the U.S. ally's borders by force.

"Georgia will be in our alliance," Cheney told reporters while standing alongside Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili, whose pro-Western government has sought to join NATO despite Russian opposition..."


Gee...didn't see that one coming.

 

[SocialNumb]

Ha ha neither did I

 

[El_Gato]

I don´t know so much abouth this problem but many people in Ossetia feels safer now because they were rejected for feeling and being russian. On the other side, Georgia is a very important strategic place at the gates of Russia so that the interest for both parts on it. The problem is way too complex...but I don´t think Russia is doing any well acting like that.

 

[musickey]

Just more proof the Main stream media is a joke.

http://exiledonline.com/is-cnn-getting-kicked-out-of-russia/