Government Shutdown

[JeffTD]

Again, cherrypicking and ad hominem attacks. This is why I deleted that last post; if you're not going to have a reasonable discussion then don't have one at all.

*edit* I'm not suggesting you're being dishonest, but you are being misleading. Whether or not that's intentional or unintentional and influenced by your personal views/political stances is another issue entirely, but to posit that you're an honest person like it changes anything or like Jind, Egan, Matt, or myself aren't honest people sounds a bit desperate.

 

[Jind]

My company always allowed pre-existing conditions. I commend them for that.

Tell me how this was possible unless you are referring to the HIPPA clause that only allowed an insurer to go back six months in your medical history when applying for coverage under a new employer - hope you (or they) required no treatment for whatever the preexisting condition was for those six months prior or they could have been shit out of luck? Private insurance companies offer policies and determine what is covered and what is not, not the employers offering those plans to their employees as a benefit?

Unless your company has a completely 100% self-insured mechanism without external private insurance involvement then I don't see this being the case. Next your going to tell me you had no lifetime or annual maximums on benefits. Even if somehow this was the case, did an employee with a prior history of cancer pay a similar premium as a healthy 26 year old non-smoker, providing of course that they could even get coverage outside that the open enrollment period when first hired (that six month history thing I mentioned above being in effect - if they had not received active care for the condition in that window)? Precluding "change of life" events which may reopen a period for an individual it can be difficult to get coverage under an employer after that first hire window with a preexisting condition - at least it has been until the new provisions of the ACA.

Prior to HIPPA enforcement beginning in 2003, an insurer could look back indefinitely in your medical history for preexisting conditions, HIPPA protections limited this to six months of history, the ACA changes this so that a preexisting condition cannot preclude you from getting insurance at any time (yes, you still have to work within open enrollment windows if you are getting employer provided heath coverage so if you don't enroll in that initial window you may have to wait for the next open enrollment the following year - or go to the exchanges and self insure).

I'm sorry, like Jeff I'm questioning some of the statements made.

Hey, I'm OK with not changing your mind on this - that entirely your prerogative to believe what you do

 

[Matt-Steele]

I think medical costs have gotten WAY OUT OF CONTROL in this country. I don't believe it's complete greed of the insurance companies but the greed of the medical providers that is one of the biggest problems.

I don't know how many of you have relatives or people you know that have needed medical attention in the last few years, but medical costs are completely outrageous! I could go on in detail and give everyone cost figures if they would like since I have a good current example since my father just had a heart attack and was in the hospital for three days.

 

[Jind]

You're just as guilty.

And you guys can question my honesty all you want but the truth is the truth. The people that know me personally on this board know I'm an honest person.

An honest person can be wrong - it explains much of the FOX news audience. Not that your a FOX viewer, it's just an example I think in their case it's called ignorant, even if blissfully so. I'm certainly capable of allowing my opinions to be clouded by knowledge I believe to be true - sometimes I'm wrong, sometimes I'm right - hopefully more so in the later.

 

[MKS]

Tell me how this was possible

100% Self-Insured Medical, Dental and Prescription.

Lifetime Cap = Unlimited. $2M per benefit period.

We're Japanese company. We work hard and we are treated very well.

 

[Jind]

I think medical costs have gotten WAY OUT OF CONTROL in this country. I don't believe it's complete greed of the insurance companies but the greed of the medical providers that is one of the biggest problems.

I don't know how many of you have relatives or people you know that have needed medical attention in the last few years, but medical costs are completely outrageous! I could go on in detail and give everyone cost figures if they would like since I have a good current example since my father just had a heart attack and was in the hospital for three days.

Every single insurance company and health care provider entering into individual contracts for pricing on every conceivable procedure and associated cost has a lot to do with it. Single payer is really the only solution that will keep costs down.

Our problem is the triumvirate of entrenched corporate interests - insurers, the massive private/for profit hospital/healthcare industry, and last but not least the one I'm most familiar with, the extremely profitable pharmaceutical industry. All have "reasons" (the majority of which are $$$$$$$$$) to keep much of the system the way it is. All three saw the writing on the wall that change was coming and signed onto (at least publicly) to the ACA because for them it's better than the single payer alternative. The ACA essentially guarantees them millions of more patients utilizing their services with all the associated fees and very few cost control mechanisms when compared to the bargaining power of a single payer system.

 

[JeffTD]

Just for the record, and for anyone still not willing to blame the GOP:

 

[Jind]

Imagine that - republicans gerrymander things. Who would have thought such a thing possible by the party of Saint Reagan and Pope Ron Paul? :Smug:

 

[He's Dead, Jim]

I've seen some interesting work that suggests gerrymandering isn't actually as big a problem as people think it is. I guess the corollary to that would be that national political factors, like the trajectory of the Republican Party and the influence of media, would be the causes of polarization and whatnot. I still feel like the logic of proving a negative is kind of shady, though, and it seems like it's got to have some effect.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ng-is-not-whats-wrong-with-american-politics/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...edistricting-didnt-win-republicans-the-house/

FWIW.

 

[Jind]

I've seen some interesting work that suggests gerrymandering isn't actually as big a problem as people think it is. I guess the corollary to that would be that national political factors, like the trajectory of the Republican Party and the influence of media, would be the causes of polarization and whatnot. I still feel like the logic of proving a negative is kind of shady, though, and it seems like it's got to have some effect.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ng-is-not-whats-wrong-with-american-politics/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...edistricting-didnt-win-republicans-the-house/

FWIW.

I used the term gerrymander erroneously. What I really meant to say was "Imagine that - republicans rig things" (gerrymander came out as I was thinking of another example of weighing/rigging the odds in ones favor). I thought something and typed the wrong part of the thought I was thinking.

 

[Seth Pack]

This having to have health insurance is a Joke.
@ Jeff -It's not right and No it's not fair.

I'm not speaking of accidental dismemberment. If were talking General health -

This is not the Thread/Place to start writing How exactly what you put in your mouth that you consider healthy is killing you. I wont get into how hundred's of thousands that have gone Vegan/RAW vegan are curing almost Everything. Cause quite frankly most people are comfortable where they're at or they're skeptics. In fact maybe I'll start my own thread. But the bottom line is

"I get that it sucks to not be able to opt out of health insurance when you feel totally healthy, but every single healthy person ever is going to require healthy care at some point in their life"

Absolutely and unequivocally not true at all.

 

[DanLights]

This having to have health insurance is a Joke.
@ Jeff -It's not right and No it's not fair.

I'm not speaking of accidental dismemberment. If were talking General health -

This is not the Thread/Place to start writing How exactly what you put in your mouth that you consider healthy is killing you. I wont get into how hundred's of thousands that have gone Vegan/RAW vegan are curing almost Everything. Cause quite frankly most people are comfortable where they're at or they're skeptics. In fact maybe I'll start my own thread. But the bottom line is

"I get that it sucks to not be able to opt out of health insurance when you feel totally healthy, but every single healthy person ever is going to require healthy care at some point in their life"

Absolutely and unequivocally not true at all.

I'm going to jump into this discussion, just for this comment. No. You are wrong. Vegans get sick, thinking that because you are "avoiding everything that's killing you" that you will forever healthy and never get sick is wrong and dangerous, there's even been cases of vegans who kept their cancer diagnosis a secret because they were ashamed of being a vegan with cancer. No. Everyone gets sick. Yes, everyone should have health insurance. I'll let Jeff and anyone else keep handling this, but get out of that mental state that you prefer to "look after yourself" by eating healthy than having the possibility of health care, it'll only do you harm. That said, I'm vegan.

 

[JeffTD]

This having to have health insurance is a Joke.
@ Jeff -It's not right and No it's not fair.

I'm not speaking of accidental dismemberment. If were talking General health -

This is not the Thread/Place to start writing How exactly what you put in your mouth that you consider healthy is killing you. I wont get into how hundred's of thousands that have gone Vegan/RAW vegan are curing almost Everything. Cause quite frankly most people are comfortable where they're at or they're skeptics. In fact maybe I'll start my own thread. But the bottom line is

"I get that it sucks to not be able to opt out of health insurance when you feel totally healthy, but every single healthy person ever is going to require healthy care at some point in their life"

Absolutely and unequivocally not true at all.

Yeah... no. Give it a shot - go off the grid, don't have health insurance, avoid taxes so you're not paying for it at all, whatever. If you get sick, I get to laugh as you die. If you don't, I don't have to listen to you bitch and moan.

 

[Seth Pack]

Yeah... no. Give it a shot - go off the grid, don't have health insurance, avoid taxes so you're not paying for it at all, whatever. If you get sick, I get to laugh as you die. If you don't, I don't have to listen to you bitch and moan.

Except it's not as radical and far-ecthed as you think. I'ts weird that even if I am right. IF i am. Knowing it could be a possibility you stick to this fallacious asshole attitude of laughter and death when the fact is.
(Go google Life extension the number one company of top level scientist that find everything out and hand the information to the subdivisory groups that sell products at places like GNC Vitamin shoppe etc etc.) Go.. I dare you.. read an article or two of their thousands on thousands of renowned and published articles done by well respected MD's and naturopathic practitioners.

In fact I'll speak in infant understandable terms just in case you don't quite get it.

My step brother-




Go look up the Hundreds of thousands that Never walk into a clinic before dying at a well seasoned age. Like much of the Japanese. Or those that were critically sickly went Raw and never stepped foot in one and you'll see while you scwabble over this the actual healthy-know better humans are
1.) actually laughing at you
and
2) hating this health insurance Bullshit with very considerable and good reason.

 

[egan.]

The bottom line is that the validity of this argument is beside the point. If people with no health insurance never sought medical attention there wouldn't be a crisis. The problem is that they do when it's an insanely expensive emergency and no one can pay for it. Beyond that not even the most extreme new ager pretends that dietary choices prevent car accidents, falls or other physical injuries that require the attention of the same healthcare system.

*18 year vegetarian who get's sick with 14 year vegetarian GF who gets sick and 10 year vegan sister who gets sick.

 

[Kaptain K. Rool]

I gotta say I've been following this thread for the fun of it but as soon as it went Vegan It caught my interest.
it's not really off topic it's indirectly on topic

I'm on the fence with all of this but as a 32 year Old 17 year vegan. Egan I really think you and your family might be doing something wrong. I'm deep in every Miami Vegan circles and massively deep in the online community and sickness is rare to non existent. If so it's poor washing or crop season both of which don't really call for Medical attention. In fact maybe cause I have really good genetics when I break something which happens a bit cause I train MMA Fighters I buy an at home kit and heal on my own without paying doctors an absurd amount of money. I haven't gone to the doc's since i was 14 when I saw my mother school an MD on aortic valve stenosis (My old Heart condition -Pre Vegan) I went on to get a PHD at ANMA and am opening a Plant oriented fighting Gym In 3 years up in Georgia. off point. Just food for thought- It's defiantly not without it's merit

 

[egan.]

My anecdotal experience is different than yours so clearly we're doing it wrong. Dan too I guess. And my studio partner and his wife. And my ex-bandmates. And Sam Simon. FWIW I'm not talking hospital sick (like Sam Simon). I'm talking a cold once a year.
But again, it's beside the point b/c if someone breaks your arm at your MMA gym you probably are going to go to the hospital. And lots of adult women are on birth control pills which also require going to a doctor. The point is that most of us don't get our money's worth out of health insurance until something serious happens. It's super easy from 18-40 to say "I don't get sick" but that's not why you get insurance.

 

[JeffTD]

My anecdotal experience is different than yours so clearly we're doing it wrong. Dan too I guess. FWIW I'm not talking hospital sick. I'm talking a cold once a year.
But again, it's beside the point b/c if someone breaks your arm at your MMA gym you probably are going to go to the hospital. And lots of adult women are on birth control pills which also require going to a doctor. The point is that most of us don't get our money's worth out of health insurance until something serious happens. It's super easy from 18-40 to say "I don't get sick" but that's not why you get insurance.

This, in a nutshell. I don't care to have a vegan vs. meat eating discussion - this is not the place for anyone to push their personal dietary agenda. All the nutritional yeast in the world won't save you from inherited cancer, heart disease, an ectopic pregnancy, slipped disc, etc.

 

[Kaptain K. Rool]

No no I what I didn't mean was I'm right and you are not. What I meant is Most Vegans especially raw that get sick are doing something wrong. That's not opinion I didn't say ALL. There are fement Festivals, College seminars, and even state meetings for the vegan community about doing it right, you would be supposed how you could be doing it wrong and slowly but surely getting sick. However like you said you just meant the cold- Colds don't generally need doctors and yes when I've broken my arm twice before and most recently 2 knuckles I didn't go to the doctor and I am very fine.

and Jeff I'm almost sure your either Medically ignorant or just argue for the sake of winning but I'll remind you I have a PHD. Pregnancy I understand however Diet massively holds an impact on irregularities or inherit anomalies in pregnancy's; in ways you would be surprised. cholesterol outside the body is only found in animals. I'll say that again cholesterol outside the body is only found in animals Cholesterol if you're not aware is the number one guiding agent in coronary heart disease, It is in fact it's fundamental rudiment. I'ts heart disease at it's pinnacle. No disputing this at all. This isn't Bro science. And what you call Inherent is A Gene passed down not RNA. Genes if you didn't know are easily manipulated for example your mom could have passed down an obesity Gene which you could then relinquish at the age of 6 by eating right before you end up fat at 17 when your metabolism slows down. Most people get cancer early twenties late thirties after years of eating the white mans processed food along with Meat cheese eggs and Milk.

 

[Seth Pack]

Kaptain just leave it alone. When They're 55 in scooter storms, and it hurts too pee but they don't remember cause they have Alzheimers, And the Vegans senors are thriving and living to 100 like they do right now they'll be laughing and still saying "forcing the people to pay for insurance in 2013 when they are healthy smart and cautious was bullshit".