Government Shutdown

1. As much as I loved Donkey Kong Country 2, I find it really hard to believe that you have a PhD.

2. Let me get this straight - you guys are actually positing that we should not provide health care because everyone can be perfectly healthy if they just ate vegan? And not just that, but that they could avoid diseases if only they started their vegan crusade at as young as 6? I just want to make sure that I'm understanding the argument correctly.
 
1. As much as I loved Donkey Kong Country 2, I find it really hard to believe that you have a PhD.

2. Let me get this straight - you guys are actually positing that we should not provide health care because everyone can be perfectly healthy if they just ate vegan? And not just that, but that they could avoid diseases if only they started their vegan crusade at as young as 6? I just want to make sure that I'm understanding the argument correctly.

1) That is perfectly fine

2) No my friend, I'm posing as a free American I should not have to pay health care if there is a real practical alternative that is showing fruits the cost of which is not needed.

By the way my friend my grandmother died of a brain tumor. My mother almost lost her life to brain surgery because of a brain tumor. When I was 11 they found one benign, at the age of 17 I dissolved it juicing Shiitake Mushrooms and interval water fasting for 3-4 days at a time for almost 2 years.
 
I'm sorry for the loses and difficulty in your family and am glad that you were able to treat your condition, but to suggest that everyone can be made healthy by the same measure is misguided, to say the least. Some people will live until 100 by drinking, smoking, and popping pills while eating raw beef, and some people will die at 25 on strictly raw, vegan diets. There isn't a blanket solution to health.

The only real practical alternative that shows fruits when talking about reducing the cost of healthcare is a single-payer system.
 
2) No my friend, I'm posing as a free American

You may consider yourself a free American and you very well be a free American, but being an American does not mean you are free from the laws legally passed, enacted, and upheld by Supreme Court as constitutional.

Unfortunately you cannot have your cake and eat it too (assuming in your case it's a completely vegetarian cake). You can't hold up the constitution as your basis for being a free American and then simply pick and choose which legally enacted provisions you will abide by. I mean you certainly can try - good luck with that :wave: Enjoy your tax bill with it's penalty calculated in.

Even freedom has conditions placed upon it. ;)
 
Wow.. how is that for stereotyping?
Didn't you say you hated that kind of stuff?

Concrete examples of shitty things typical of a person hardly count as a stereotype. Just because you want to deepthroat Paul doesn't make his party flawless or immune to criticism.

Your statement indicates a clear misreading of what he was saying, though. Saint Reagan = worship Reagan and his ideals, Pope Paul = leader of 'freedom (tm)' in the Republican party. What has gone down is the opposite of what both of these men claim(ed) to stand (have stood) for.
 
1) That is perfectly fine

2) No my friend, I'm posing as a free American I should not have to pay health care if there is a real practical alternative that is showing fruits the cost of which is not needed.

By the way my friend my grandmother died of a brain tumor. My mother almost lost her life to brain surgery because of a brain tumor. When I was 11 they found one benign, at the age of 17 I dissolved it juicing Shiitake Mushrooms and interval water fasting for 3-4 days at a time for almost 2 years.

Even if you can almost guarantee that you won't get sick from diseases from being vegan, can you be sure that everyone you come into contact with will be healthy? Can you be sure the drunk driver that's swerving all over the place won't hit you? You can't because there are no guarantees. The only way I see you guys out of having to get insurance is to have a "Do not receive medical care" waiver on your drivers licence if you're laid out somewhere about to die. But I'm sure your loved ones would be pissed if you were dying and no one tried to help you.
 
And for those of you who don't understand what this shutdown is about yet....it's basically this
Republicans: Obama...can we burn your house down?
Obama: No!
Republicans: Ok, can we burn half of your house down?
Obama: No!
Republicans: Ok...can we just burn down your living room?
Obama: No!
Republicans: Why wont you compromise?
 
Kaptain just leave it alone. When They're 55 in scooter storms, and it hurts too pee but they don't remember cause they have Alzheimers, And the Vegans senors are thriving and living to 100 like they do right now they'll be laughing and still saying "forcing the people to pay for insurance in 2013 when they are healthy smart and cautious was bullshit".

This is ridiculous. Not everyone who eats meat ends up with alzheimer's at 55, get real. And as said before, even if you did never get sick thanks to your diet (which again, get real, and I hope you're taking B12 supplements or eating your own shit if you don't want dementia coming YOUR way at 55), you'll have an accident and try to heal it with mushrooms instead, that's cute. You guys have no arguments against the point you can have unexpected injuries or car accidents, get shot in the street, etc. and keep avoiding it. This point is silly, please stop insisting on it.
 
Concrete examples of shitty things typical of a person hardly count as a stereotype. Just because you want to deepthroat Paul doesn't make his party flawless or immune to criticism.

Your statement indicates a clear misreading of what he was saying, though. Saint Reagan = worship Reagan and his ideals, Pope Paul = leader of 'freedom (tm)' in the Republican party. What has gone down is the opposite of what both of these men claim(ed) to stand (have stood) for.

What 'concrete examples' did he even give about Ron Paul?

Throwing Ronald Reagan and Ron Paul under the same bus -and on a single sentence- like the one Jind posted is a blunt generalization, no matter how you try to spin it.

Ron Paul, even though he was supportive of Reagan's campaign for president (because of the limited government and libertarian ideals Reagan supposedly espoused), quickly became extremely disillusioned and critical of his administration, for turning back on those ideals, once he came into office:
''Ronald Reagan and the Republican Party have given us skyrocketing deficits, and astoundingly a doubled national debt. (...) Reagan's record is disgraceful. He starts wars, breaks the law, supplies terrorists with guns made at taxpayers' expense and lies about it to the American people.''

Sounds familiar?

— Sen. Barack Obama’s Floor Speech, March 20, 2006 —
“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. …
Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that “the buck stops here.”
Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.”
Oh, the irony.
The same lies and back-stabbing Reagan -and many others American presidents have pulled-, Obama does now.
I guess it shouldn't be a surprise in that sense. More so when some of you seem to be all up for it, oddly enough.

For the record, I'm not uncritical of anyone, not even Dr. Paul or the people around him. You're just assuming things there.

I've never said republicans are immune to criticism as you imply, either. Elite pre selected, bought-and-paid-for politicians are ALL to blame, no matter what ''side'' they pretend to be on. That's actually true of many countries, not just the US.
I think Republicans are using the debt ceiling -at least partially- as mere political bickering (instead of taking it as the very serious issue it is), and trying to sabotage Obama on his healthcare reform. The debt has been racked up by Republicans and Democrats alike.
The more you let Obama overspend and devalue the dollar though, the worst the coming crash will be.

I agree with you in that what is 'going down' as you put it, is the opposite of the libertarian ideals Dr. Paul stands for (and Reagan once pretended to).
That happens because your country at large (or at least the loudest among you) keep doing everything you can in going against those very ideals.


I genuinely wonder, what you will have to say once the dollar collapses. Who will you blame, then?
 
Colds don't generally need doctors and yes when I've broken my arm twice before and most recently 2 knuckles I didn't go to the doctor and I am very fine.

You are soooo lucky that you're fine after you broke your arm and didn't go to the doctor, believe me!
I'm 26, broke my left arm quite a few times, most of the cases may have worked out without a
doc if you could build yourself some kind of rig for your arm because the bone wasn't entirely broken.
The last time, my elbow was shattered to pieces, with no insurance there would have been to cases
for me:
1. Not going to the hospital, never be able to move my arm again, being disabled with no financial
support, no way of getting a normal job (I am lefthanded and it was my left arm) and probablya growing
disability because it would fuck my spine and stuff.
2. Going to the hospital and pay all the bills - I needed 2 surgerys, 10 days in the hospital and loads of
therapy to learn to write again and so on. Altogether that would have been around 45k € that my insurance
paid for me, I didn't even start college back then, so I would probably have to pay for all the stuff
until I get a really good job or until I'm dead.

You might think that I either did extreme sports or have weak bones...nope, I just slipped in my parents
cellar, that's it, my elbow crushed on a stair.

There's sooo much that could hurt you really bad and nothing as expensive as your health, so why on
earth shouldn't you spend some money on this instead of all the bullshit everyone of us does?
 
These are the type of vegans that make the rest look bad. Take your head out of your ass. What would you have everyone do? Force them to be vegan so you don't have to pay for health insurance? How did you even think this whole vegan thing would be worth mentioning in this thread? WTF man.
 
Yeah, thanks for making the rest of us pay for your emergency room care when you eat a batch of salmonella-laden kale and try to self-medicate with water and good vibes. Enjoy the tax penalty :kickass:
 
So what you're saying is that even bacterias and viruses can't stand hardcore vegans?


I'd really be interested to place you guys in a room full of malaria patients vomiting blood, and see what happens.
 
I don't even have the energy anymore. What started with some decent discussion about the gov't shutdown turned into an argument about currency stability, veganism, alternative medicine (read: NOT medicine), Ron Paul, and debt. I'm happy to have discussions about all of these topics (despite having covered currency stability and Ron Paul ad nauseam in the past), but not in one thread. Suffice it to say I've re-added some people to my ignore list and put some brand new guys in, as well.
 
Too bad, as a non-US-citizen it's quite interesting to read well-thought opinions of somebody who seems to have a clue.

The main issue is that I just don't know where to start. Every new post that gets brought into the thread has at least 2-3 parts that make me go "wait... WHAT?" and only 1 of them (if we're lucky) has anything to do with the topic at hand. I'm happy to answer any specific questions you might have but I'm just not interested in getting into the same ridiculous, circular Ron Paul debate with AD Chaos again.