Corsair
Member
- Aug 17, 2009
- 550
- 1
- 18
You know, I really _should_ be ashamed of myself for not bringing them up. I am a bad man
Grunge. Why?
- Thread starter adaher
- Start date
You know, I really _should_ be ashamed of myself for not bringing them up. I am a bad man
TribunalRecords
Record Label(s)/Vocalist
i have to disagree Badmotorfinger is a great album 9 for me.
Temple Of The Dog didn't make my list because it is assumed if i like Soundgarden and Pearl Jam this would have been on there. This album is a classic album in my book. Great on so many levels.
Jasonic
Doom On!
You know, I really _should_ be ashamed of myself for not bringing them up. I am a bad man
It's cool, just like with any genre that gets commercial success, there are always originators that get overlooked.
They did get some bigger tours and a major label deal during this time, but when you look like this, you ain't gonna break hearts:
skyrefuge
Member
Excellent posts, adaher. I actually went looking at chart information myself during that last thread to fact-check the conventional wisdom when people were saying "no, grunge didn't kill metal! The proof is that *I* still knew about metal!" But I only looked at the list of #1s from the Hot 100 on Wikipedia, which wasn't especially informative. So it's awesome that you've gone and dug deeper into the hard data. Unfortunately for you, I think that means that you're better-informed than anyone else in this thread, so until a major-label executive from that era chimes in, you probably won't get the answer you seek. But your assumptions about competing product lines for a limited number of marketing dollars, combined with a couple decisions by execs that got mimicked across the industry, sound reasonable to me.
Neil
Neil
nomisofsiman
Member
It's cool, just like with any genre that gets commercial success, there are always originators that get overlooked.
They did get some bigger tours and a major label deal during this time, but when you look like this, you ain't gonna break hearts:
Unfortunately for you, I think that means that you're better-informed than anyone else in this thread, so until a major-label executive from that era chimes in, you probably won't get the answer you seek.
Thank you, although I won't claim superior knowledge on a subject I just researched a couple weeks ago. What I have is just data, and others interpretation of the data is different from mine.
I just thought it was interesting data, because when I was looking at the charts I didn't see what I expected to see. I got to the point in 1991 where Smells Like Teen Spirit peaked at #7, so then I was like, "Okay, here we go, this is where the grunge era begins and melodic rock ends." But then for the next three years, I see no grunge hits and still quite a few melodic rock hits, although not as many as in the late 80s. It's not what I expected given how I remember the era, and I'm sure a lot of other people would be surprised that melodic rock still had commercial success long after the record companies and MTV officially declared it "dead".
Thank you, although I won't claim superior knowledge on a subject I just researched a couple weeks ago. What I have is just data, and others interpretation of the data is different from mine.
I just thought it was interesting data, because when I was looking at the charts I didn't see what I expected to see. I got to the point in 1991 where Smells Like Teen Spirit peaked at #7, so then I was like, "Okay, here we go, this is where the grunge era begins and melodic rock ends." But then for the next three years, I see no grunge hits and still quite a few melodic rock hits, although not as many as in the late 80s. It's not what I expected given how I remember the era, and I'm sure a lot of other people would be surprised that melodic rock still had commercial success long after the record companies and MTV officially declared it "dead".
TribunalRecords
Record Label(s)/Vocalist
i actually don't consider them grunge considering they transcend genres. Houdini is great album.
Jasonic
Doom On!
Eh, whatever.
I think all Billboard chart numbers will indicate is that grunge maybe got rid of the poser fans who go with the wind.
I recall back in high school MANY non-metal fans who following the rise of Metallica's popularity were now fans of Testament, Anthrax, Slayer, Megadeth, etc.
Many of these fans were radio only fans anyhow, and would have gone to the next trend, regardless of what came next, be it grunge, alternative, nu metal, rap metal, crap metal, etc, etc.
I still then go back to my original point. If you were a fan in that era of underground metal, then it had no impact. IF you are specifically only concerned with album sales and chart positions, then you might have something there, but what I am getting at is that it would have happened anyhow. Just happend to be at that time, the nod went in the favor of grunge.
I think all Billboard chart numbers will indicate is that grunge maybe got rid of the poser fans who go with the wind.
I recall back in high school MANY non-metal fans who following the rise of Metallica's popularity were now fans of Testament, Anthrax, Slayer, Megadeth, etc.
Many of these fans were radio only fans anyhow, and would have gone to the next trend, regardless of what came next, be it grunge, alternative, nu metal, rap metal, crap metal, etc, etc.
I still then go back to my original point. If you were a fan in that era of underground metal, then it had no impact. IF you are specifically only concerned with album sales and chart positions, then you might have something there, but what I am getting at is that it would have happened anyhow. Just happend to be at that time, the nod went in the favor of grunge.
nomisofsiman
Member
Jasonic
Doom On!
Well, whatever. I don't give a rat's arse about genre definitions anyhow.
Just like Sabbath and doom, and Venom / MF being called black metal, the Melvins were around LONG before "grunge" was a term.
Just saying that the band they had a TON of influence over, in NIRVANA, were the break-thru "grunge" band.
I know this might not be a popular statement, but I don't agree that Pearl Jam are grunge. Way too polished of a sound, and Vedder is the LaBrie of the era, in having no ballz whatsoever in his voice. Not saying he is a bad vocalist, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to hear him try to tackle something like "TOUCH ME I'M SICK" or "LOVE BUZZ"
Jasonic
Doom On!
Sorry bro, i think you are just fishing for some hip terminology.
Sludge metal is more southern-fried. MELVINS are not sludgy
I would call them noisy doom metal before calling them sludge.
Or, "Music to NOT get laid by"
Dustin
C-C-Cool Beans!!!
I'm probably a little late on this topic, but I was reading through and was fascinated that his was being brought up. My father and I talk about this all
the
time. Hopefully this doesnt go too far off topic, so take it for what it's worth.
Just a little background - my dad was a radio DJ for some of the heavy hitting stations locally from 76'-86', and then jumped over to selling advertising for radio until 94'. He has a vinyl collection of 45's and albums that fills an entire room, most of them dating back as far as 1951. He also has radio singles chart listings from the 60's all the way up to 1997 which is when he stopped collecting and DJ'ing private parties all together due to becoming totally disenchanted with popular music and the direction it had been going.
Now, how does this all play into the subject of Grunge and the dominance of it's time, even though most of the stuff never really charting? believe it or not, the major labels were only half the issue - Here's a different take on the theory which might fill in the gaps:
Near the end of the 80's, radio stations started to become bought put by large management companies. By this, I mean that before the late 80's, a majority of radio stations in the U.S. were privately owned, and would use billboard charts and other means to determine what was "hot". sometimes, THEY would dictate what was hot and what was not on a local level, and it would spread to other stations regionally or even nationally. In fact, (and this is an entirely different subject), the lack of ingenuity, originality and lack of risk taking on what is played on the air is gone since radio stations are now corporate owned. In Utah where I'm at, there are roughly 25 FM stations, only 4-6 of them are privately owned, the rest are owned by conglomerates such as Clear Channel, Citadel, J-Core and so on and so forth, and from the 1950's up until the late 1980's, it was the exact opposite. And thus, my Dad calls the early 90's "The Death of TOP 40". In fact, this is a hot topic if you look it up in Google it is a real phenomena. There was a time when you would hear pop, rap, new wave, hard rock and metal all on one select station - the best of the best of all genres - but that no longer exists.
What has happened seems a bit surreal, but when these corporation started buying up radio stations in the late 80's and practically taking over the radio waves by the mid 90's, changing formats, putting one person in charge of "regional programming" and automating their operations, it began to alter everything in a very homogenized and sterile way that would forever change the way we hear music on the radio now. Ever wonder why you go to a city like Chicago and hear a station that sounds EXACTLY like one that you hear while visiting Philly? Same jingle? same songs? sometimes even the same DJ? because it's probably owned by the same company and is a all done by satellite, with a pre-determined clock (a format which dictates what type of band/artist will be played) with enough time to leave open for commercials and a "local" DJ to talk on spots for station ID and PSA's. Bottom line calling in a request for a song is a moot point, and that was one classic and sure fire way to find out what songs was on fire back in the day.
Once again, back in the "old days" of radio, my dad would tell me stories of a songs that would have a b-side that accidently got played and became a hit, bands having their friends and everyone in their family calling in to request a song over and over until it broke, or how a band would come into the station with their manager or a label rep, give the program director and the DJ a line of coke and a street walker and tell them, "play this song.. it'll be a hit, we promise!!!" and sure enough, It would start in some random big city, and spread like mad through the rest of the country with the buzz and word of mouth. Once the 80's hit, MTV (the first corporation to start the trend) changed everything, making instant stars of artist via music video's. If the video was a hit, the song was sure to be a hit on the radio as well. And then corporations came into play shortly after . what this all boils down to is the corporate radio stations and their league of extraordinary program directors, began to dissect Top 40 and place everything into it more specific genre's with the intent to target specific age groups, sex, and races of people along with their relation to demographics to maximize their selling power in advertising.
Ol' pops used to do weddings, car shows, corporate party's, the works . The ironic thing to this is that about the early 90's, his work became less and less, and his ability to compete fell through the floor. He would get a copy the latest billboard singles charts and do a dance at a school or wedding, and everyone would act like he was playing music in a foreign language. The charts showed that certain artists (mostly R&B/rap) were the top sellers, but doing a dance in a white suburban area deemed futile when the kids would ask why he didn't have any Candlebox, Bush or 7 Mary Three - he was confused, and so were they, He'd make a vain attempt at finding these alternative/grunge singles with my help, go and perform a dance on the air force base or at the job corp, and run into the reverse situation. To his (and my) knowledge, the only time this was ever an issue during the 70's and 80's when it was involving country music, and by the early 90's the line between pop and country was becoming very blurred, and the term "pop" music or "top 40" became a term or word that was as en vogue as saying "Groovy" or "Radical".
The old man eventually gave up, stating that he couldn't relate to the music that was coming out (again, mostly R&B/Rap and Alt-rock), that the lack of good ballads/love songs, or songs with great vocal hooks and melody were gone, and said that the current chart trends show rock music as a dying breed. after 30+ years, he thought he'd never see it happen, but it did. He's 65 years old, and in both of our opinions, the 60's were the start of good things in music, and that it peaked in the 80's and was the prime for great experimentation, innovative production and engineering ideas, cross over appeal and variety, but it all dropped off rather quickly once the 90's rolled in.
Unlike 20 years ago, chart positions have nearly become irrelevant when it comes to singles or "hits", especially in the U.S. market. In fact, depending on where you get your source of information, practically EVERY genre is on the top or on the bottom of the charts and will read radically different . billboard? VH1? ASACP? BMI?.... Blender???? With satellite radio, corporate owned radio, file sharing, MP3's and the like, it's extremely subjective starting in the early 90's to now on what a "hit" single is or was, but it all points to the early 90's and corporate radio buy-outs as the start of when it all changed concerning charts.
Just a little background - my dad was a radio DJ for some of the heavy hitting stations locally from 76'-86', and then jumped over to selling advertising for radio until 94'. He has a vinyl collection of 45's and albums that fills an entire room, most of them dating back as far as 1951. He also has radio singles chart listings from the 60's all the way up to 1997 which is when he stopped collecting and DJ'ing private parties all together due to becoming totally disenchanted with popular music and the direction it had been going.
Now, how does this all play into the subject of Grunge and the dominance of it's time, even though most of the stuff never really charting? believe it or not, the major labels were only half the issue - Here's a different take on the theory which might fill in the gaps:
Near the end of the 80's, radio stations started to become bought put by large management companies. By this, I mean that before the late 80's, a majority of radio stations in the U.S. were privately owned, and would use billboard charts and other means to determine what was "hot". sometimes, THEY would dictate what was hot and what was not on a local level, and it would spread to other stations regionally or even nationally. In fact, (and this is an entirely different subject), the lack of ingenuity, originality and lack of risk taking on what is played on the air is gone since radio stations are now corporate owned. In Utah where I'm at, there are roughly 25 FM stations, only 4-6 of them are privately owned, the rest are owned by conglomerates such as Clear Channel, Citadel, J-Core and so on and so forth, and from the 1950's up until the late 1980's, it was the exact opposite. And thus, my Dad calls the early 90's "The Death of TOP 40". In fact, this is a hot topic if you look it up in Google it is a real phenomena. There was a time when you would hear pop, rap, new wave, hard rock and metal all on one select station - the best of the best of all genres - but that no longer exists.
What has happened seems a bit surreal, but when these corporation started buying up radio stations in the late 80's and practically taking over the radio waves by the mid 90's, changing formats, putting one person in charge of "regional programming" and automating their operations, it began to alter everything in a very homogenized and sterile way that would forever change the way we hear music on the radio now. Ever wonder why you go to a city like Chicago and hear a station that sounds EXACTLY like one that you hear while visiting Philly? Same jingle? same songs? sometimes even the same DJ? because it's probably owned by the same company and is a all done by satellite, with a pre-determined clock (a format which dictates what type of band/artist will be played) with enough time to leave open for commercials and a "local" DJ to talk on spots for station ID and PSA's. Bottom line calling in a request for a song is a moot point, and that was one classic and sure fire way to find out what songs was on fire back in the day.
Once again, back in the "old days" of radio, my dad would tell me stories of a songs that would have a b-side that accidently got played and became a hit, bands having their friends and everyone in their family calling in to request a song over and over until it broke, or how a band would come into the station with their manager or a label rep, give the program director and the DJ a line of coke and a street walker and tell them, "play this song.. it'll be a hit, we promise!!!" and sure enough, It would start in some random big city, and spread like mad through the rest of the country with the buzz and word of mouth. Once the 80's hit, MTV (the first corporation to start the trend) changed everything, making instant stars of artist via music video's. If the video was a hit, the song was sure to be a hit on the radio as well. And then corporations came into play shortly after . what this all boils down to is the corporate radio stations and their league of extraordinary program directors, began to dissect Top 40 and place everything into it more specific genre's with the intent to target specific age groups, sex, and races of people along with their relation to demographics to maximize their selling power in advertising.
Ol' pops used to do weddings, car shows, corporate party's, the works . The ironic thing to this is that about the early 90's, his work became less and less, and his ability to compete fell through the floor. He would get a copy the latest billboard singles charts and do a dance at a school or wedding, and everyone would act like he was playing music in a foreign language. The charts showed that certain artists (mostly R&B/rap) were the top sellers, but doing a dance in a white suburban area deemed futile when the kids would ask why he didn't have any Candlebox, Bush or 7 Mary Three - he was confused, and so were they, He'd make a vain attempt at finding these alternative/grunge singles with my help, go and perform a dance on the air force base or at the job corp, and run into the reverse situation. To his (and my) knowledge, the only time this was ever an issue during the 70's and 80's when it was involving country music, and by the early 90's the line between pop and country was becoming very blurred, and the term "pop" music or "top 40" became a term or word that was as en vogue as saying "Groovy" or "Radical".
The old man eventually gave up, stating that he couldn't relate to the music that was coming out (again, mostly R&B/Rap and Alt-rock), that the lack of good ballads/love songs, or songs with great vocal hooks and melody were gone, and said that the current chart trends show rock music as a dying breed. after 30+ years, he thought he'd never see it happen, but it did. He's 65 years old, and in both of our opinions, the 60's were the start of good things in music, and that it peaked in the 80's and was the prime for great experimentation, innovative production and engineering ideas, cross over appeal and variety, but it all dropped off rather quickly once the 90's rolled in.
Unlike 20 years ago, chart positions have nearly become irrelevant when it comes to singles or "hits", especially in the U.S. market. In fact, depending on where you get your source of information, practically EVERY genre is on the top or on the bottom of the charts and will read radically different . billboard? VH1? ASACP? BMI?.... Blender???? With satellite radio, corporate owned radio, file sharing, MP3's and the like, it's extremely subjective starting in the early 90's to now on what a "hit" single is or was, but it all points to the early 90's and corporate radio buy-outs as the start of when it all changed concerning charts.
Jasonic
Doom On!
Dustin - good post.
A couple specific things I want to address:
1) The concept of the predetermined schedule. I found out about this when working at my college alt rock station during the mid 90's. Every day there was a set schedule of songs hour by hour. I had to laugh, as I used to have the same thoughts as to the whole "Call in your request" thing, because most of the time, it is ignored. I suppose some stations have periods of the day where it is more free form, like a flashback 80's lunch, where it doesn't matter to the big corporations what is played since that results in minimal impact to album sales.
2) The concept of "singles" being played by a radio station. You mention the b-side being played accidentally. Most KISS fans know this, but "Beth" was never an "A" side single, it was the "B" side to (I believe but I might be wrong) "Detroit Rock City" It got played accidentally and it spread like wildfire.
3) The modern era of the MP3 - Do stations even get full lenths sent to them anymore? I haven't been near a radio station in MANY MANY years. Do DJ's play actual CDs? This may sound stupid, esp to you younger guys who might be more in the know, but I would guess a radio station is fully digital, and free of the physical format. That even limits more to what a station can play.
A couple specific things I want to address:
1) The concept of the predetermined schedule. I found out about this when working at my college alt rock station during the mid 90's. Every day there was a set schedule of songs hour by hour. I had to laugh, as I used to have the same thoughts as to the whole "Call in your request" thing, because most of the time, it is ignored. I suppose some stations have periods of the day where it is more free form, like a flashback 80's lunch, where it doesn't matter to the big corporations what is played since that results in minimal impact to album sales.
2) The concept of "singles" being played by a radio station. You mention the b-side being played accidentally. Most KISS fans know this, but "Beth" was never an "A" side single, it was the "B" side to (I believe but I might be wrong) "Detroit Rock City" It got played accidentally and it spread like wildfire.
3) The modern era of the MP3 - Do stations even get full lenths sent to them anymore? I haven't been near a radio station in MANY MANY years. Do DJ's play actual CDs? This may sound stupid, esp to you younger guys who might be more in the know, but I would guess a radio station is fully digital, and free of the physical format. That even limits more to what a station can play.
dcowboys311
Member
Some of the stations -- mostly the smaller, independent ones -- send actual CDs, but Century, Nuclear Blast, Relapse, Roadrunner, etc have all switched over to digital delivery. It sucks and makes me a lot less likely to play their music.
Thanks for that Dustin, that's really interesting information. I did know about the B-side thing, for this project I picked up a copy of Billboard #1's and read it cover to cover.
Aside from the B-side thing, another fascinating thing is how often a #1 hit wasn't even a song the artist liked. Often something that got thrown together in five minutes because they needed one more song for the album. And sometimes a hit would start from just one radio station and spread nationwide.
It's true that the Top 40 isn't what it was. From 1970 to about 1993, you could find all genres there, but after 1993 it was mostly R&B and rap. Although there has been a revival lately thanks to the boy bands and Britney and Jessica Simpson.
As far as rock, rock is probably too splintered for any one genre to sell enough to be commercially viable in the sense that R. Kelly or Celine Dion or Bon Jovi are commercially viable. After the grunge era, and this is a good thing, every rock artist just went and did whatever they wanted. I think the current era is the most creative ever, especially in metal. And we owe it to the internet, since there's no way MTV or the record industry would promote this stuff.
Only after the internet made bands like Nightwish and Dragonforce successful did some major US labels become interested.
Who knows, maybe some day Nightwish will have a #1 single and sell 10 million records in the US. I can dream.
Aside from the B-side thing, another fascinating thing is how often a #1 hit wasn't even a song the artist liked. Often something that got thrown together in five minutes because they needed one more song for the album. And sometimes a hit would start from just one radio station and spread nationwide.
It's true that the Top 40 isn't what it was. From 1970 to about 1993, you could find all genres there, but after 1993 it was mostly R&B and rap. Although there has been a revival lately thanks to the boy bands and Britney and Jessica Simpson.
As far as rock, rock is probably too splintered for any one genre to sell enough to be commercially viable in the sense that R. Kelly or Celine Dion or Bon Jovi are commercially viable. After the grunge era, and this is a good thing, every rock artist just went and did whatever they wanted. I think the current era is the most creative ever, especially in metal. And we owe it to the internet, since there's no way MTV or the record industry would promote this stuff.
Only after the internet made bands like Nightwish and Dragonforce successful did some major US labels become interested.
Who knows, maybe some day Nightwish will have a #1 single and sell 10 million records in the US. I can dream.
I also have to confess that I LOVE tween rock like the kind Disney and Nickolodeon have been promoting. It's simple and childish, but catchy and a relief after years of so-called rockers staring at their shoes and singing about whatever's been depressing them lately. And it gets the kiddies interested in rock music.
J. Golden
Heaven and Hell Records
I thought 'Badmototrfinger' was by far the band's best album. Though my fav is Louder than Love'. I just pulled out the whole cat. last week.
As for Temple of the Dog it is one of my top 10 favorite albums of all time.
Corsair
Member
- Aug 17, 2009
- 550
- 1
- 18
"Music to NOT get laid by"
I once got a footjob while listening to Iron Maiden. True Story.
One thing I will readily concur with, however, is that the radio has sucked for a long time. The last time I remember listening to and liking it, I must have been...10, maybe 12 years old?
TribunalRecords
Record Label(s)/Vocalist
Jasonic
Doom On!
Similar threads
