Guitar Tone Sample - Help

Melodeath

Melodeath

Moonbow
Feb 6, 2004
3,045
2
38
Northern VA
I've been recording a band, but I need a bit of help with the guitar tone. Here is a sample - http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?id=13235

To me it sounds a bit muffled. Anyone else think so? How would you go about fixing that, or the tone in general? This is a processed (EQed) version of the recording, but I feel I need to do some more EQing. Your input is appreciated greatly.

Thanks a lot.
 
Always willing to help out a local bro :D

Yeah, I'd say muffled. Muffled like a tourist in someone's back trunk kinda muffled. What amp and settings were used, and what mics/post-processing were used? To me it's sounding like an inherent problem and you're going about the business of polishing a turd. Nothing wrong with polishing mind you...but if you have a chance to fix the original problem you'd be a lot better off.
 
It's DI tracks reamped through an Engl Powerball and VHT Pitbull *embarassed*

Call me crazy but I much preferred the tone of my 5150.

I used 3 mics. One Red5 RVD 9 on-axis right at the center of the cone, and an SM-57 off-axis at the center. Both about a half inch from the cloth I think. I also used a small diaphragm condenser a few feet back from the cab (4X12 VHT), although that mic is not mixed in at all in the mp3. In the mp3, the SM-57 is mixed 6 dB below the on-axis mic.

I EQed the mics differently. Mind you these are pretty extreme EQ settings in my opinion, in an attempt to fix the muffled-ness. The on-axis mic has a 10 dB cut around 350 Hz, 10 dB boost at 130 Hz, and a very small boost around 3k
the off-axis (seems to be the source of the muffledness) has a 4 dB cut at 350 Hz and a 4 dB boost at 4k
Both have a hi-pass at 100 Hz and low-pass at 15k

Thanks for helping man
 
I agree that the muffledness is coming from the off-axis 57. How does the Red5 sound by itself? If what I'm hearing in the high end is the Red5 you might be able to flesh out more in the mid range and keep that. But then again I see your purpose in using the Powerball/VHT combo over the 5150 in trying to get more natural low end.

Have you tried the 5150 through the VHT cab, maybe even with the same mic configuration?
 
Yes, pretty much all the high end you hear is the Red5 mic. The off-axis SM-57 basically sounds like a blanket.

IMO, the on-axis (Red5) sounds just a little bit thin, being the only mic and pointed right at the dustcap. So, I'm using the off-axis mic to "thicken" things up, but unfortunately it's adding that muffled-ness.

I did try the 5150 through the VHT cab. It sounded much better to my ears. However, I tried it after we re-amped haha.

Btw, I was going for the "Fredman technique," yet somehow the off-axis mic seems almost un-usable
 
The axis-off axis/Fredman/whatever it's called technique is tricky because you are intentionally trying to get some phasing in the sound. I think what's happening is that the difference between the two mics are so drastic you aren't getting any phasing, at least none of note. The best mics I've heard with that technique were either 2 57's or 2 i5's. I'd even try micing them like this:

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u185/derfbonker/MICDIAGRAM.jpg

One atop the other, both pointing at the dustcap but having the second aimed at the line between dustcap and paper. Slap on a multi-band compressor (Sneap settings seems to be a favorite) and see what ya get.
 
Now that I look at the pictures I took of the mic position, I think I may have placed the SM-57 too far out. It seemed to be aiming at the center though - maybe just not enough. Also, in my DAW, there appears to be no phasing at all between the two mics. I've heard conflicting things about the Fredman technique and phasing. On one hand, I've heard people say you have to make sure the 2 mics are in phase, so you'll have to time shift one. On the other hand, I've heard the Fredman sound is caused by phasing, but why would there be phasing if the mics are practically coincident?


Here's a picture - http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a243/Melodeath/HPIM1135.jpg

The on-axis mic sounds pretty good, which frankly was surprising as, to me, the amps sounded sort of muffled in the room. With close-miking like this, how much does the room affect the mic sound? I may have placed 2 "sound absorbers" in a poor place. Pic - http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a243/Melodeath/HPIM1131.jpg

Forgive me, but what is the "one 57 a la Sneap" technique? On-axis, where the dustcap meets the paper? A link would be nice

I think I will try using only the on-axis mic, and mayeb adding some parallel compression.

Thanks
 
getting better!

I'm hearing amp noise every once in a while, sounds like somethings up with the compression. BUT I think a compression problem is better than a crappy tone problem ;)

How loud is the amp? I don't think is has the robustness the way your playing would normally dictate, turning up the volume might help.

Here's a crazy idea, no clue if it would work or not. Do 4 takes (two left 100%, two right 100%) but add parallel compression for each side (right 1 no compression, right 2 compressed; left 1 no compression, left 2 compression) time shift if necessary and see how that sounds. If it sounds like your amp just soiled itself, hey at least it works in theory. If you unleash the tonal dogs of war, thank me :D
 
The amps were rather noisy, so it may not be a compression problem. I think it will be ok in the mix, and it only seems to be on the left. The Engl was noisier than the VHT, so since I forget, I think the Engl is on the left. Heh

The amps were not too loud, but not quiet either. It was loud enough for me to get annoyed and want ear plugs after a minute of listneing to the reamping. (cab 7 feet away from me)

I wont be able to try that 4 takes thing unless we record the guitars again. How do you think it would be different?
I've got the on-axis left going to its own compressor for parallel compression, and the right on-axis going to its own compressor.
 
It's not a huge deal, but I could point it out first time I heard the amp noise. If you have an external gate, use it, if not, no biggie.

well you could copy and manually time shift what you have. I've experimented with single take/double tracking and it's been cool, so I'll mess with single take and quad tracking tomorrow and show you what I got. As a pre-curser though, the original take was done while experimenting with outboard EQ, post-guitar FX and the first time ever on rev3. But like I said, I'll show you what I come up with and you tell if you like it or not.
 
I think before eqing and compressing, you should worry about getting a good tone to tape. It sounds like you could use a touch more gain and treble. Also, really experiment with a single sm57, trying to find the right position.

You mentioned the room sound. It really helped me to put a heavy blanket over the cabinet and mic (not between them, just sealing them off from the room). My room had bad acoustics, and even with the mic right up against the grill you could hear the difference, so a blanket over the amp and mic fixed that.
 
Well, we tweaked the amp and got it sounding the best we could before we tracked it. Now, I'm just trying to tweak the best out of the recording that I can.

I'm not really sure how acoustically "good" my room is, but the band commented on how his drums sounded better here than where they normally play.

spioraid,
Looking forward to your results.

EDIT: I noticed the C-1 compressor I'm using for parallel compression is adding some crackling. I tried a different compressor with the same settings and I'm not getting the crackling. I wonder what's up

And the crackling leaves if I put the release up to 10,000 lol
 
I worked all day today and I'm tired, I'll try and do that quad tracking trick next change I get tomorrow or Monday; sorry for the delay.

Your room looked alright to record guitar in, the isolation should have gotten rid of any problems you might have had. Glad to hear you can use a better compressor!
 
Take your time. As far as this project goes, we're done recording rhythm guitars

Actually, we recorded bass and vox yesterday. Btw, I added some more "air" to the guitars by boosting at 8k.

Djabthrash said:
Sounds very muffled to me also. I'd try to remic it with only one SM57 a la Sneap, cuz' you should get killer tones with a Pitbull and a PB. (And i'm curious to hear it :) )
Click to expand...
I'm still not sure what this is. 1 SM-57 on-axis, slightly off center (like where the dust cap and cone meet)?
 
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