Hello and Guitar Mixing question

[James Murphy]

i'm sorry Hoppy...but you're wrong on a couple of points... there is nothing at all wrong with using the same tone for all four tracks.. or two tracks.. on an album.. it is done every day and many of the killer albums we all quote and love and put into our "now playing" fields when we post were done in exactly that way.. same sound, same mic, same guitar.. everything.. including many of the albums i have played on over the years.. like for instance Disincarnate "Dreams of the Carrion Kind" which was produced by Colin Richardson. in fact, using the same setup for each pass is the easiest way to not have phasing problems, so you are mistaken on that one. playing through different amps can still be great... great way to "stack tones"... but you do it with one performance, with an amp-splitter, then do that once or three more times with the same setup.. depending on ifyou want double or quad tracking. stacking tones, or blending amps, is a great way to get cool new, unique guitar sounds.. but it is not the way to "thicken" up your sound.. not the best way anyway... that is accomplished by the subtle differences in the 2 or 4 performances... even when they are played very tightly.. indeed they MUST be played tightly or you just have slop.. but as tight as you can get there are still differences that are greater than the sum of the parts... they are what you are after... making a good sound, be it with one or multiple amps, is a given.

i think you got the phasing thing from something else: if you just make a digital copy of one track and pan it to the opposite side the result will sound mono.. same thing if you take one performance from a D.I. track and re-amp it through 2 different amps and pan them.. mono, with a tone that is a combo of the two amps... but mono nonetheless. now, if you offset one of the copies of the guitar track by several milliseconds you can create a "fake stereo" simulation.. but if you are not very careful with choosing the offset you will get a phasey, thin, washy sound... the results of comb-filtering... avoid this by always playing each guitar track each time.. no digital copying silliness. i hope this clears up some of the confusion.

\m/

 

[johnzorn]

I'd hate to be in Necrophagist and have to double that stuff. It hurts to listen to think about getting that shit tight.

 

[vile_ator]

I agree with everything James said. Thanks for the Disincarnate recording info James.

Here's what Im doing right now. It took me quite a while to settle on the tone method. I tune down to A# and pick fast and its very hard to get a good tone. Its not chunk like you guys are talking about so thats a disatvantage but:

I am recording guitar tracks for both sides. Im just recording 2 performances. I am using 2 amps. Peavey 5150 and Mesa Triple Rec. I have miced two cabinets with one 57 on each. I spent a very long time getting mic placement right so that one 57 produces a very balanced tone that could be used alone, but then the other mic on the other cab is just adding some frequencies that help fill it out a bit. Cabs are shielded with foam to stop reflections from getting back in the mics. Preamps are Calrec(high quality).

I record the left side with the 5150, right side with the Mesa. I keep the same mic placement for both sides, same guitar. I just switch heads.

I also record a direct track on a third track that I use to Reamp with later. I run a reamp track for both sides with the opposite amp. I could use an amp splitter like James does but I dont have a good one(expensive) So when Im done I have this:

each Side:
track 1: Mesa/sm57/celestion 85w
track 2; Mesa/sm57/celestion 75w
track 3: 5150/sm57/celestion 85w reamped
track 4: 5150/sm57/celestion 75 w reamped

I make the left side a predominantly 5150 sound and the right side is mostly Mesa. And when I dialed the tones for each head I tried to make them sound similar.

I record a decent amount of low end in the tone. Its so easy to take off what you need in the mix with eq. When you dont record enough, you cant put it back in and youre fucked.

I record high sampling rate with good converters.

With all this going on, my shit better fucking rule when its done.....



Colin

Ps, I dont think you can get a good enough tone with the POD. The Pro will get you close. A real tube head is the best..

 

[Brett - K A L I S I A]

If you just make a digital copy of one track and pan it to the opposite side the result will sound mono ... avoid this by always playing each guitar track each time.. no digital copying silliness.

This is 100% true ! I just received tracks for a mix of a demo. The band was horrified by the mix the guy did for them (he comes out of a big audio school, blahblah...) and so they came to me. And, among other stupidies, there was only one rhythm guitar track, copied left and right... With a very thin sound moreover, and no DI so I could reamp. So the only solution I had was to re-record the guitars myself. Here is the result, hope you'll like it :

http://tinoo.free.fr/andy/original.mp3
http://tinoo.free.fr/andy/remix.mp3

 

[MR NINE]

This is 100% true ! I just received tracks for a mix of a demo. The band was horrified by the mix the guy did for them (he comes out of a big audio school, blahblah...) and so they came to me. And, among other stupidies, there was only one rhythm guitar track, copied left and right... With a very thin sound moreover, and no DI so I could reamp. So the only solution I had was to re-record the guitars myself. Here is the result, hope you'll like it :

HI Brett!
The original mix sucks! The remix you've done is far way better!! You did well re- recording the guitars. I think they should be a bit more in the front of the mix.
But the difference between both mixes is like from water to wine! If you know what I mean?!

 

[Ermz]

Sounds a bit like the difference between Kelly and Andy's Nevermore mixes (that being a complement, of course!)

 

[MR NINE]

 

[Brett - K A L I S I A]

Sounds a bit like the difference between Kelly and Andy's Nevermore mixes (that being a complement, of course!)

Hahaha, yeah, thanks, this is like the best complement ever Tho Kelly's mix is still better than the band's original demo I'm working for (well, it's even better than my remix but hey, that's another question, haha).

 

[Wadi]

among other stupidies, there was only one rhythm guitar track, copied left and right... With a very thin sound moreover, and no DI so I could reamp. So the only solution I had was to re-record the guitars myself. Here is the result, hope you'll like it :

Same here, only difference is that the "producer" likes the way it sounds and pushed his way through forcing me to digitally copy the guitar track,panned it hard and added reverb (swoooosshh) though at many points of time I stressed that what we are doing doesnt sound right. And, I dont intend to re-record the guitars anyways.

 

[SickBoy]

The band was horrified by the mix the guy did for them (he comes out of a big audio school, blahblah...) and so they came to me. And, among other stupidies, there was only one rhythm guitar track, copied left and right... With a very thin sound moreover, and no DI so I could reamp. So the only solution I had was to re-record the guitars myself. Here is the result, hope you'll like it :

It just proves that the fact he attended the school doesn't mean he had high grades there...
His sound is awfully mushy, too many instruments are drowned, while some keyboards stick out and poke my ears. Too bad for his money spent for the school, he would be much better of donating it for those in need.
There's no need to tell you how much your mix sounds, it's plain obvious to yourself I suppose. At least now the lead vocal is being heard as well as drums, previously completely buried in the mix. Maybe a tiny bit of clarity on the guitars wouldn't hurt, though...

 

[Steno]

i'm sorry Hoppy...but you're wrong on a couple of points... there is nothing at all wrong with using the same tone for all four tracks.. or two tracks.. on an album.. it is done every day and many of the killer albums we all quote and love and put into our "now playing" fields when we post were done in exactly that way.. same sound, same mic, same guitar.. everything.. including many of the albums i have played on over the years..
\m/

I completely agree with James (hi man, it's incredible to have you write in this forum!!! )!
To get the "wall of sound" feeling with rythm guitars you need to have ONE guitar tone...

I only would like to add one thing about the situation that was mentioned before, talking about the Machine Head example...
If you've got Robb and Phil playing in the album, the best thing is to have one guitar, one amp and mic placement (or multiple for each take... i.e. same signal through multiple amps recorded during a single take) and one HAND.

What I always do (...and what I heard professional producers do! ) when the band I work with has more than one guitar player is to let them play every riff (a sort of preproduction...) to find out who is the most confortable with the part, and he will record EVERY track of that rythm part (2, 4 or whatever!).
Doing this you'll have incredibly tight parts, and so they have to be!, and you won't get the "natural chorus" effect because the parts, even if they seem identical, still have that micro-differencencies that make them unique!
It is physics: that kind of effect comes from the fact that the same wave form is added to itself with a small delay!

Reading the news Andy worship: ) posted 'bout the new Nevermore ( ) it seems that he's recording the album that way, is it true?
He speaks about "Jeff 1", "Steve 2"...

Sorry for this enormous post!!