hope

[einride]

is it a useful or positive thing to have "hope"?

i am talking about "hope for the future", "hope for a better life" and such -- when people treat outside circumstances as being beyond their control and eschew positive thinking and positive action for "hope", as if someone or something else -- god, politicians, world economy -- was going to eventually come and turn things around for the better.

hope as a theological virtue, like the other theological virtues, is easy enough to dismiss for most of us -- not accepting the christian faith is enough of a reason to wholly disregard hope in the theological sense as even being a virtue. is it not true, though, that many (out of tradition, probably) still treat it as such, unnecessarily cling on to "hope" as a positive emotion only because it is convenient to shift responsibility for their own lives onto someone else?

i never used to reflect much over this as "hope" is so traditionally a positive concept in western society that the word to me carried no negative connotations whatsoever. then i thought about it a little bit, and realized that i think hope is a non-productive or even destructive emotion, and that in many cases hope is holding people back from being what they could be. nietzsche said something like this once:

Zeus did not want man to throw his life away, no matter how much the other evils might torment him, but rather to go on letting himself be tormented anew. To that end, he gives man hope. In truth, it is the most evil of evils because it prolongs man's torment.

is he right? is hope what keeps humanity ticking in the face of an inhumane world, or a crutch for those who dare not face the fact that their lives is ultimately in their hands alone?

 

[Conspicuously Absent]

I believe somewhat of both is true. Hope keeps plenty of people from slitting their throats, on the other hand, they could probably rescue their own ass if they realised that nobody is going to just do it for them.

You gotta blaze your own trail. and I suck at deep discussions.

 

[swizzlenuts]

I don't like the idea of hope very much at all. Especially in the sense that it's based on no evidence. However, if you want to define it as just thinking optimistically, then I don't really have any objection to it; at times that can be even harmful. I'd say some people need a balance of optimism and pessimism, because bad shit happens to good and bad people.

 

[einride]

However, if you want to define it as just thinking optimistically, then I don't really have any objection to it; at times that can be even harmful.

i think positive thinking is distinct from hope. positive thinking is a way to purposely influence yourself into actually performing positive actions, which hopefully (heh) gets you somewhere; hope is just a vague notion that things should be getting better at some point in the hazy future.

with this i just want to say that having a generally positive outlook on life is likely to lead to better things than either negative thinking or just "hope". i'm not saying you should not be pessimistic about things in general, because things in general have a tendency to not work out, and you probably don't want to set yourself up for disappointment too much. HOPING that things will turn out differently is useless. THINKING that things will probably be alright anyway is healthy.

 

[Reign in Acai]

Hope is antonymous to worrying. Neither of which have an impact on anything, aside from your blood pressure. You're better off popping beta-blockers.

 

[Vittra]

Hope breeds a false sense complacency and ensures inactivity.

The weak, lazy, and even apathetic hope for something. Those with conviction and positive thinking act, and work towards achieving that "something".

I view hope with the same distaste that I view regret. Ultimately pointless, and as RIA has said, affect nothing except your state of being, which if you take what I say above, is fine if you want to live in a state of ignorance.

 

[skeptik]

Hope is fine where appropriate. Hope is the mingling of desires with expectations, and expectations are not blind. Hope can lead toward empowerment of the individual to strive for that which is hoped for. The problem with hope is that it is too easy to be relied upon, but that is not its own fault, but the fault of stupid people. Just like people who rant and rave about how horrible cell phones are on an inherent level, what praxis dictates becomes more true about hope than what is actually true. People see others rely on hope and get crushed when their hopes (their blind hopes, mind you, which is not really hope), and they as a result turn away themselves from hope so that they don't fall victim to the same. They don't realize the utility of hope any more than others realize the utility of cell phones or myspace because they see how it is used, and not how it can be used. So no; hope is not a bad thing in itself. Hope is a very good thing, but it depends on how it's used. Hope leads to positive thinking.

 

[einride]

I view hope with the same distaste that I view regret.

regret was going to be my next thread

 

[lurch70]

i think positive thinking is distinct from hope. positive thinking is a way to purposely influence yourself into actually performing positive actions, which hopefully (heh) gets you somewhere; hope is just a vague notion that things should be getting better at some point in the hazy future.

because of your actions ... not because you are waiting for someone else's

 

[einride]

The problem with hope is that it is too easy to be relied upon, but that is not its own fault, but the fault of stupid people.

i think the fundamental problem here is not reliance on hope, but on what or whom that hope is in turn relying. it is too often a thing that is 1) non-existent, 2) seemingly random, or 3) hard or impossible for the individual to influence. this is probably down to stupid people also, however.

Just like people who rant and rave about how horrible cell phones are on an inherent level, what praxis dictates becomes more true about hope than what is actually true.

i'm a pragmatic, what can i say. i'd like to argue, then, that even if i grant that hope can be possible and useful, it is not necessary -- it is just another step on the ladder to personal empowerment and self-realization -- one that is a little bit too prone to breakage for ME (at least) to put any trust in it. it can be skipped because even if hope leads to "strive for that which is hoped for", you can strive without hoping and i would like to think that is the purer path with less disappointment.

People see others rely on hope and get crushed when their hopes (their blind hopes, mind you, which is not really hope), and they as a result turn away themselves from hope so that they don't fall victim to the same.

this is a good way of looking at it.

Hope leads to positive thinking.

can lead to under optimal conditions. it will at least as often lead to despair. perhaps some people need hope but i am fairly certain i have no utility for it and am not an unhappier man because of that.

 

[lurch70]

i think the fundamental problem here is not reliance on hope,

this totally started off sounding like Obama

 

[lurch70]

regret was going to be my next thread

luck needs to be explored as well

 

[skeptik]

i think the fundamental problem here is not reliance on hope, but on what or whom that hope is in turn relying. it is too often a thing that is 1) non-existent, 2) seemingly random, or 3) hard or impossible for the individual to influence. this is probably down to stupid people also, however.

Indeed.

i'm a pragmatic, what can i say. i'd like to argue, then, that even if i grant that hope can be possible and useful, it is not necessary -- it is just another step on the ladder to personal empowerment and self-realization -- one that is a little bit too prone to breakage for ME (at least) to put any trust in it. it can be skipped because even if hope leads to "strive for that which is hoped for", you can strive without hoping and i would like to think that is the purer path with less disappointment.

I can't disagree with this. I don't put much stock in hope either, as I'm always rather cynical, but I see the positive side that it can have for (non-stupid) people.

can lead to under optimal conditions. it will at least as often lead to despair. perhaps some people need hope but i am fairly certain i have no utility for it and am not an unhappier man because of that.

I suppose it's true that it as often leads toward a negative when hopes are not reached in reality as it does positive, but I think that again goes back to human stupidity in large part. Again, though, I see where you're coming from and feel similarly about hope with respect to my own person.

 

[J.]

im not gonna get into a deep discussion, but i think hope can keep a person going.

for example, i hope i get to see my daughter grow up. i hope my huge pecker can still perform when im 60, i hope i pass my accounting test.

keep things simple. over anal-ization is for the weak and neitzsche.

 

[Reign in Acai]

On second thought, hope may be a beneficial placebo. If this spic would have only realized that the only direction you can go after hitting rock bottom is up, then perhaps his offspring would have been spared. Fucking coward.

LOS ANGELES — A man shot and killed his wife and five young children before taking his own life Tuesday, apparently out of despair after the couple lost their jobs at a hospital, the police and city officials said.

Officers responding to 911 calls placed by the man, Ervin A. Lupoe, and by a television station to which Mr. Lupoe had sent a fax around 8:30 a.m., found seven bodies in a house in Wilmington, a working-class neighborhood near the Port of Los Angeles.

A police spokesman said the bodies were identified as Mr. Lupoe; his wife, Ana; their 8-year-old daughter and two sets of twins (5-year-old girls and 2-year-old boys).

Mr. Lupoe had telephoned and sent a fax to KABC-TV that indicated “he was despondent over a job situation and he saw no reasonable way out,” said Lt. John Romero, a police spokesman.

The two-page, typewritten letter made clear he was going to kill his family and himself. The station quickly called 911 to report the letter and then posted it on the station Web site after the bodies were discovered.

The letter said Mr. Lupoe and his wife had worked as medical technicians at a Kaiser Permanente hospital in West Los Angeles, but recently lost their jobs after a dispute with an administrator.

The administrator, it said, had asked them on an unspecified day why they had come to work, and then added, “You should have blown your brains out.”

Two days after the confrontation, the letter said, the Lupoes lost their jobs and began planning their deaths and those of their children.

“Why leave the children to a stranger?” Mr. Lupoe said his wife had asked. “So, here we are,” he wrote.

Kaiser Permanente officials issued a statement confirming the couple had worked at their hospital in West Los Angeles but would not say when they had lost their jobs or provide other details. “We are deeply saddened to hear of the deaths of the Lupoe family,” the statement said.

Although the police are treating the case as a murder-suicide, Deputy Chief Kenneth Garner said the police were still sorting through a discrepancy.

Contrary to his fax and reported call to the television station, the man told a 911 operator he had arrived home and found his family dead, Deputy Chief Garner said. But investigators found a revolver next to Mr. Lupoe’s body, the only weapon in the home, he said.

The police said they found the bodies of the three daughters next to their father in a front bedroom upstairs. The boys were with their mother in a back bedroom on the same floor.

“A man who recently lost his job allowed the despair to put him over the edge,” said Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, who held a news conference outside the house. “Unfortunately, this has been an all-too-common story in the last few months. But that does not and should not lead people to resort to desperate measures.”

A man killed his ex-wife, her parents and friends at a Christmas party in West Covina last month after losing his job. In October, a 45-year-old father of three shot and killed his wife and children in their Porter Ranch home after describing financial stress in a suicide note.

Mayor Villaraigosa urged Los Angeles residents experiencing financial stress to talk to friends and neighbors and seek counseling “to get back on their feet and keep their families afloat.”

Cecilia Yvar, 68, whose grandson often played with the Lupoes’ 5-year-old twins, said the family moved to the neighborhood four years ago. The Lupoes added a second story to their home last year, Ms. Yvar said, and landscaping to their backyard.

“Maybe too much money, too much stress,” she said while wiping away tears.

Ms. Yvar said the couple kept to themselves, but greeted their neighbors warmly each day. On Sunday, she said, they appeared unhappy as they walked together outside.

Yolanda and Oscar Lopez, who have lived in the area three months, said they had seen the Lupoes in the neighborhood.

“There’s so much pressure from the economy and people out of work and stuff,” Mr. Lopez, 28, said. “But adults, they know there are other options. You don’t have to do this.”


This always seems to occur in California. Mejicanos mendegos!!!

 

[lurch70]

yeah, pretty sad. saw this earlier on TV along with their big ass house and 2 big trucks in the frontyard.

 

[Demilich]

Like Erik said, hope is fine and dandy, but putting hope/faith in unrealistic or nonexistent forces and entities is simply not practical, and leads to despair, dissapointment, and often violent lashing-out.

 

[cthulufhtagn]

i think having hope can mean understanding that there are many things out there beyond our control, i'm not talking about god here--sometimes things don't go our way but sometimes they do, and that's just the way she fuckin' goes. hope is instinctive and is neither weak nor useless imo.

excessive and unrealistic hope can cause greater disappointment, and that's perhaps why i'm a cynic, but discarding hope altogether with the intent of eliminating disappointment is like rejecting happiness in the name of minimizing sadness. must our lives be so flat and emotionless?

cheerful nihilism ftw

 

[obscure]

Isn't HOPE a very fuzzy expression anyway? If hope means "putting responsibility on others", sure it's destructive, but to give hope an absolute definition is as hard as describing how "personality" is expressed, with only one sentence; hope has as many variations. For many people it might mean something solely negative or unnecessary; very well then, just leave it be. For me "hope" rather works as the power that keeps me from self-annihilating and giving up the dreams I live for; like some sort of "patience", "stamina" or "self-confidence". To get there as soon as possible, to grasp and reach those wishes, I ALONE have to DO something (that's a simple fact) and "hope" helps me to linger on to those actions. It helps me to believe that I can be more and deploy further from what I am, at this very moment (or remain in one certain state as long as possible for that matter, if that's what I'm hoping for).

it can be skipped because even if hope leads to "strive for that which is hoped for", you can strive without hoping and i would like to think that is the purer path with less disappointment.

If we stop expecting and hoping for things to happen, or for them to be in a certain way when they happen, the result (whatever it is) will always be acceptable in a way, since no comparison can or will be made, and we stop striving(?) For me, expecting IS striving, and disappointment leads to greater goods. I don't see any point in trying to escape a less desirable condition like disappointment in the first place, in order to find a more constant state of happiness. I think one needs the first to even recognize the other when it occurs. If satisfaction was constant there wouldn't even be a word for it.