How do you know a master is clipping...
- Thread starter LeSedna
- Start date
No problem dude! And my final piece of wisdom is this - Elephant is the greatest limiter EVAR
+1 Yes it is! Thanks Dave O
Oh wow, Dave uses it? I didn't even realize, but there's a hell of an endorsement right there! 
Speaking of which, he needs to post here more often like he used to
Speaking of which, he needs to post here more often like he used to It's pretty basic - a limiter detects when a signal goes above a certain threshold (which you set) and then brutally yanks it back to be beneath that (hence the term "brickwalling", cuz it's as if the spikes are hitting a brick wall), whereas a clipper just cuts the tops off of those spikes, which can be bad on things like guitars, vocals, etc., but very very very good on anything with super sharp transients where we barely notice anyway (especially snares). So the philosophy is: since snares usually create sound spikes higher than any other instrument in a mix, they strain the limiter because it has to work to bring them back down, but since it's only working on the master bus, the rest of the mix suffers as well. However, if you clip the snare using something such as GClip, then it doesn't spike nearly as highly, and you can bring the volume up much louder with the limiter before it starts sounding horrendous because it's not working as hard to tame all those crazy snare spikes.
Hope that helps!
this is great info, thanks man!
all best!
gabriel g.
Member
Today I checked a mix on my studio setup (mackie onyx 1640) and it was clipping on the onyx LED ???
I used the L2 and Logic showed me no clipping when I did it at home (on my M-Audio fast-track)
This one is realy strange!!!! Because I set the L2 with -0.3. ceiling so no clipping should happen????
strange
I used the L2 and Logic showed me no clipping when I did it at home (on my M-Audio fast-track)
This one is realy strange!!!! Because I set the L2 with -0.3. ceiling so no clipping should happen????
strange
grywolf627
Member
Also, read this thread: Getting Your Loudness Especially look for the stuff posted by Slate about using two Gclips and Elephant. It's pure gold and has helped me immensely.
Plec
Master of Ceremonies
Correct me if I'm wrong but the Onyx 1640 is an analog mixer? If so it's not really clipping as in digital clipping you're seeing. If it goes into the red it's just because of a normal hot, average signal.
Melodeath
Moonbow
Different units are calibrated differently. Even in the digital domain, different meters will display a red light at different points. They put on a red light based on how many samples in a row have reached 0dbFS. There's different ranges. Some plugins/hardware will put on the red light with 2 consecutive sampels at 0dbFS, others not until 5 consecutive samples, etc.
Also just b/c you set a ceilign at -0.3 doesn't mean you wont get clipping. It depends on the quality of the limiter, and you can still get intersample peaks, unless you have a limiter that oversamples (assuming it's designed properly, as well haha).
Also just b/c you set a ceilign at -0.3 doesn't mean you wont get clipping. It depends on the quality of the limiter, and you can still get intersample peaks, unless you have a limiter that oversamples (assuming it's designed properly, as well haha).
DaWolf
Mojito Maniac
True,and it`s not only the quality but the type and setting as well. While a brickwall keeps the margin locked, a soft limiter will let some peaks slip through.
TheWinterSnow
Den Mørke Natt
probably ahs nothing to do witht he digital side of things. Might have a lot to do with the fact that the output to the mixer is really hot, either becuase there is an input calibration taht is set to high or the digital out calibration is set too low for your output levels. Ideally your master fader peak meter should read the same peak levels as your LED indicator, if not I would go so far to say there is a mismatch in the mixers input gain control, as in its set higher than unity.
Today I understood effectly the interest of clippers.
From my point of view of someone who didn't understand it really before, this is the way I got it :
GClip allows you to make a track sound louder while not making it gain too much level, because it would remove the transients. The fact is that it removes transients that would hit the 0dB without making it audible. Those transients are important for the sound, but having them so high compared to the sustain is useless and is a pb when it comes to compression or limiting. Therefore, you can control which part of the extrema of the transient you want to remove while keeping the rest of the sound, which is its essence. So in GClip, you visually see the amplitude of the track while it plays, and the game with a snare for example, is to give it more gain and to choose which part of the transients you wanna keep. If you remove let's say 5/10%, the snare sounds the same BUT in your mixer you'll see it's volume is limited, more stable, and won't hit the red. It gives you control, headroom, to tracks that are very percussive. If you put it on toms and snare, you will end if used correctly to the same sound coming from the tracks BUT their volumes would for example stay at -10dBFS maximum while before they would have hit -3dB etc, which would have caused your drum bus to raise -1dB and would have caused pb in the mastering stage.
This is where I got, I hope it's all right ?
From my point of view of someone who didn't understand it really before, this is the way I got it :
GClip allows you to make a track sound louder while not making it gain too much level, because it would remove the transients. The fact is that it removes transients that would hit the 0dB without making it audible. Those transients are important for the sound, but having them so high compared to the sustain is useless and is a pb when it comes to compression or limiting. Therefore, you can control which part of the extrema of the transient you want to remove while keeping the rest of the sound, which is its essence. So in GClip, you visually see the amplitude of the track while it plays, and the game with a snare for example, is to give it more gain and to choose which part of the transients you wanna keep. If you remove let's say 5/10%, the snare sounds the same BUT in your mixer you'll see it's volume is limited, more stable, and won't hit the red. It gives you control, headroom, to tracks that are very percussive. If you put it on toms and snare, you will end if used correctly to the same sound coming from the tracks BUT their volumes would for example stay at -10dBFS maximum while before they would have hit -3dB etc, which would have caused your drum bus to raise -1dB and would have caused pb in the mastering stage.
This is where I got, I hope it's all right ?
joeritson
queenslander
Your 1604, if its anything like my desk (which it is) may indicate a clip well below 0db, depending on where the fader and eq pots are. It sends the firewire signal out pre-fader and pre-fx, so it's different in your DAW
gabriel g.
Member
Yeah this are all good points, you guyes mentioned!!!
But I used the L2 from waves (which is a oversampling brickwall limiter)
And mastered the demo at home. Logic didnt show any clipping.
At the last band practice I played the song on the mackie onyx 1640 (firewire a/d)
And the meters showed clipping.
The mackie recieves the audio in L/R and gives it to the main-output with no additional processing.
I think it is too accurate or recieves a little to hot signal?
The thing is, that when I played different songs (andy sneap, Joey sturgis, zeuss tuff) on the mackie nothing is clipping?
But I used the L2 from waves (which is a oversampling brickwall limiter)
And mastered the demo at home. Logic didnt show any clipping.
At the last band practice I played the song on the mackie onyx 1640 (firewire a/d)
And the meters showed clipping.
The mackie recieves the audio in L/R and gives it to the main-output with no additional processing.
I think it is too accurate or recieves a little to hot signal?
The thing is, that when I played different songs (andy sneap, Joey sturgis, zeuss tuff) on the mackie nothing is clipping?
Plec
Master of Ceremonies
The Waves L2 is not oversampling to my knowledge. Only a look-ahead limiter I believe. Your problem may be as simple as intersample peaks. Basically even if digitally you don't have any overshoots, the D/A converter can still spurt out hotter signals due to the sum of 2-3 max dynamic samples in a row for example makes the D/A put out hotter signals, up to 2-3db sometimes.
I used L2 for a long time, Elephant blows it away in terms of transparency IMO! (and I found L2 made things a bit harsher)
gabriel g.
Member
Yeah the L2 is not a good booster, but it is a good brickwall limiter.
I boost with the waves api 2500 and after that the L2 (max -2dB threshold and -0.3 ceiling in the ultra-mode)
I mostly use the L3-LL but it is a colourfull multiband limiter. I didn´t know that for a long time but I read it last month on gearslutz.
The difference between the L3-LL ultra and the L3-LL-multi is that you only can choose a preset and cant play with each different band by hand...
Boosting the L2 over -3dB threshold sounds like ASS
SSL released a freeware intersample Peakmeter for free. You just have to make a free account and can download it...
I boost with the waves api 2500 and after that the L2 (max -2dB threshold and -0.3 ceiling in the ultra-mode)
I mostly use the L3-LL but it is a colourfull multiband limiter. I didn´t know that for a long time but I read it last month on gearslutz.
The difference between the L3-LL ultra and the L3-LL-multi is that you only can choose a preset and cant play with each different band by hand...
Boosting the L2 over -3dB threshold sounds like ASS
SSL released a freeware intersample Peakmeter for free. You just have to make a free account and can download it...
gabriel g.
Member
and about the L2
Manual and ARC™ Automatic Release Control
IDR™ Increased Digital Resolution with double precision
bit re-quantization and dither with 9th-order noise shaping filter
Double precision bit resolution processing
Up to 24bit 192kHz resolution
Mono and Stereo components
Supports TDM, RTAS, Audio Suite, VST, AU
PC and Mac compatible
Manual and ARC™ Automatic Release Control
IDR™ Increased Digital Resolution with double precision
bit re-quantization and dither with 9th-order noise shaping filter
Double precision bit resolution processing
Up to 24bit 192kHz resolution
Mono and Stereo components
Supports TDM, RTAS, Audio Suite, VST, AU
PC and Mac compatible
gabriel g.
Member
But Metaltastic you are right, I´m not that happy with all waves limiter.
I´m thinking about the Flux limiter, Sony oxford limiter and Inflator...
damn fucking plugins, they are my new drug. I bought the Studio classics bundle this year....
I´m thinking about the Flux limiter, Sony oxford limiter and Inflator...
damn fucking plugins, they are my new drug. I bought the Studio classics bundle this year....
Plec
Master of Ceremonies
Try a limiter that catches intersample peaks and see if that solves your problem... it probably will. Although there are A LOOOOOOOOT of masters out there, even from houses like Sterling that suffer from intersample peaks. The ones I know that has the feature of dealing with this are PSP Xenon, iZotope Ozone, TC Brickwall Limiter. There are probably a couple others more...
how are assigning and gain staging the FW return to the board?
where do you have the master fader set? are you controlling the monitor levels with the master outs or C/R outs?
