How dumb is Taake?

[Occam's Razor]

Really, if you do a gig in Essen, Germany and flourish your swastikas, it is only plausible that this causes extreme reactions.

And then this statement:

http://taake.theblacksun.org/

The link section on the right is funny...Adam and the Ants...Rotten.com

 

[Jim LotFP]

I'd like to assume that when they say, "everyone should know by now that our whole concept is built upon provocation and anything evil- and death-related," this is some purposeful stance intended to question the snap judgements of an audience... in which case displaying a swastika could have a point (especially in Germany), and the reaction would just be proving their point.

But I have the feeling that it's just a lot of saying "BOO! Look how eXtReMe we are! Are you offended yet?" and now "oh shit, someone's calling us on our dipshit behavior."

 

[Occam's Razor]

Then they have this "anti cosmic, anti live"-logo on the site, which comes from the MLO (see Dissection), who are definitely extremist and persue right-wing political ideas close that draw from fascism. I guess we don't need more of that. They should maybe kill themselves as well. Isn't nazi-provocation hackneyed...okay, people react to it still, but you cannot be indifferent towards it. The past has simply proven that such ideas are to be taken seriously, and everybody who disagress with this, in my opinion, missed the point.

 

[Scourge of God]

I dunno, maybe the idea we should be taking seriously is freedom of fucking expression. Is it a dumb, hackneyed, ideologically bankrupt gesture? Sure. But it's not something that needs to be silenced either.

 

[Jim LotFP]

I dunno, maybe the idea we should be taking seriously is freedom of fucking expression. Is it a dumb, hackneyed, ideologically bankrupt gesture? Sure. But it's not something that needs to be silenced either.

Taake's got the right to do it as far as I'm concerned. German law may disagree, I don't know, but I haven't heard anything about this Hoest guy being in legal trouble over this.

... but the paying customers and the people who book the band have every right to express their feelings on the matter as well. They have no responsibility to support behavior they think is ridiculous.

 

[Scourge of God]

Displaying the swastika is illegal in Germany (as are the stiff armed salute, heil Hitler, the Horst Wessel Lied and the other visual and auditory accoutrements of National Socialism), so I imagine the constraints were indeed, legal, not from the audience.

 

[Occam's Razor]

They WERE from the audience and organisators as well. In a lot of German forums at the moment, you can read about how annoyed people are - even disappointed because they like the music of Taake.

People with brains in Germany don't want that provocation, especially not from foreigners. I am not that sensitive iin these terms (and find the prohibition of the symbols etc. rather pointless), but I don't think that outsiders have a clue about what it means to Germans to be provoked by the imagery. It is really not the same for a person from Norway or the US or whatever.

 

[JayKeeley]

The thing that makes it laughable is that his apology starts with "we're not a political nazi band".

Graveland says the same thing, believe it or not. Regardless of his beliefs, Darken insists that his music is not NS. And on paper at least, he may be right.

This also reminds me of the old vinyl release (was it Emperor?) which had some comment about "not for the jewish". I can't remember exactly but I know there was some massive knee jerk reaction to quickly apologize for that blunder too.

So with all that said, then why do it? If it's not something you truly believe in, and only want to provoke a reaction, then doesn't that inherently make it A FUCKING GIMMICK?

It's almost as if you have to respect the real nazi bands more only because they really do support this ideaology, and it's not just for scaring away hippies.

Please, let's face it, most metal heads and metal fans are complete dweebs hiding behind a computer on the internet. The whole "shock factor" in any guise is getting really old now. Can metal be a serious musical art form now or are we forever going to be surrounded by gimmicks or guilty pleasures?

Goddamn.

 

[BenMech]

And I thought we already had a laugh at their misfortunes with that err, great concert photo of winky willy

 

[Occam's Razor]

It's true that some of these obvious nazis separate the ideology from the music. After all, Burzum was not nazi propaganda lyrically, and this goes for Graveland as well - even though I'd say that there is not much else than lyrics if you consider that their music is a pile of rubbish.

SOme Emperor members did not tire to provoke in their early days. An interview with Faust from 1993 or so is full of anti-semitism.

The last taboos are broken with all that provocation. It can hardly become more crass that way, so as we have seen. There are other ways. Shining did this gig with the ex Mayhem singer, and their own singer beat him and pulled his hair, injured himself and members of the band as well as the audience. The bass player quit because the fronter intended to break his arm live on stage or something like that. Needless to mentioned he had a swastika etched into his forehead....Glen Benton to the next level.

I don't know what all this should have to do with music.

By the way, it is just as idiotic to run around in Chile yelling "Viva Pinochet" - a favorite passtime activity of Stratovarius' Jens Johansson. In this case, it is also "just for fun" and "provocative", but the effect is the same: I would not credit the respective persons for having much brains. As a counter example, I found the provocation of Pungent Stench far more intelligent and just as extreme, if you looked closely at it.

 

[DBB]

So are these clowns singing about slaves, genocide as equal opportunity haters of mediocrity and humanity?

 

[DBB]

The thing that makes it laughable is that his apology starts with "we're not a political nazi band"

My personal highlight was "you can go suck a Muslim!" Their damage control skills are amazing.

So with all that said, then why do it? If it's not something you truly believe in, and only want to provoke a reaction, then doesn't that inherently make it A FUCKING GIMMICK?

So why is a giimmick such a bad thing? Not that I disagree with you--just interested to hear your take on it.

Slayer is the most prominent and popular gimmick band using this criteria.

 

[Fando]

It's almost as if you have to respect the real nazi bands more only because they really do support this ideaology, and it's not just for scaring away hippies.

Pure provocation is only respectable if you can actually turn a profit or manipulate the press to your advantage (usually to turn a profit) See: Slayer, David Bowie or Boyd Rice.

Taake guy is just a douchebag.

 

[Scourge of God]

They WERE from the audience and organisators as well. In a lot of German forums at the moment, you can read about how annoyed people are - even disappointed because they like the music of Taake.

People with brains in Germany don't want that provocation, especially not from foreigners. I am not that sensitive iin these terms (and find the prohibition of the symbols etc. rather pointless), but I don't think that outsiders have a clue about what it means to Germans to be provoked by the imagery. It is really not the same for a person from Norway or the US or whatever.

Yeah, I mean, gosh, swastikas must have a much worse connotation for people who inflicted the Nazis on the world than for people who suffered under the Nazi boot, right?

 

[Occam's Razor]

I personally don't care for swastikas, as I am a generation after. However, everybody on this planet should be aware for what it stands and (not) use it accordingly. This also goes for all these pagan bands that insist that it is a positive sign in its original meaning. Meanings change with history, so you can basically use signs with any intention behind them...only be aware that this might lead to misunderstanding. I am free to go around speaking the English that was spoken 1500 years ago if I want - Yet I should know that nobody gets what I am saying. A shaky comparison maybe, but anyway...

 

[BenMech]

very very shakey,andreas. I see your point

 

[Scourge of God]

I personally don't care for swastikas, as I am a generation after. However, everybody on this planet should be aware for what it stands and (not) use it accordingly. This also goes for all these pagan bands that insist that it is a positive sign in its original meaning. Meanings change with history, so you can basically use signs with any intention behind them...only be aware that this might lead to misunderstanding. I am free to go around speaking the English that was spoken 1500 years ago if I want - Yet I should know that nobody gets what I am saying. A shaky comparison maybe, but anyway...

As you say, meanings change, so why should people not seek to reclaim a positive meaning for the swastika?

Besides, you're overstating your case significantly in any event. In places where the swastika is still in prominent use (Asia), very few people would immediately associate it with the Nazis. Should they have to accede to your meaning, regardless of where the symbol is situated in their culture?

 

[Occam's Razor]

the thing is that in this case, it is not Asians, but people perfectly aware of the connotation. As I said, I am not insulted, but these things just get on my nerves in their predictability.

 

[Scourge of God]

the thing is that in this case, it is not Asians, but people perfectly aware of the connotation. As I said, I am not insulted, but these things just get on my nerves in their predictability.

You moved from the specific case to a general 'rule', so I thought I'd do the same.

You still haven't answered my question about reclamation. Why should Hitler be allowed to own the symbol forever? For that matter, why should offended Jews be allowed to own it?

 

[BenMech]

Don't, Scourge.

I've yet to see a European or American "reclaim" the symbols and use them exclusively for their pre-20th century use.Hell, the Asian communities don't even bother anymore. So your point is nullified. Then again, you're an ANUS troll,so I imagine you'd say how the National Socialist ethnic cleansing concepts were brilliant and should have carried themselves out further. Then again, you'll tell me you said no such thing and try to insult me.