How high is to high to HP you Overheads....

[chadsxe]

I know this is kind of a general question but this is the first time I am really running into this problem....

I can't stand that tracking of some overheads I am working with....The snare is 2 far left and sounds like a rubber dodge ball.....My idea at this point is to suck the hell out of the overheads by high passing it to about 800....this eliminates a lot of the toms and snare (which I want).....but I am afraid it might take away from the cymbals.....I listen to it and can not make my mind up.......does this sound like a dumb idea?

 

[STINNETT]

I know this is kind of a general question but this is the first time I am really running into this problem....

I can't stand that tracking of some overheads I am working with....The snare is 2 far left and sounds like a rubber dodge ball.....My idea at this point is to suck the hell out of the overheads by high passing it to about 800....this eliminates a lot of the toms and snare (which I want).....but I am afraid it might take away from the cymbals.....I listen to it and can not make my mind up.......does this sound like a dumb idea?

It might be a little unusual in some situations, but if it sounds best in this situation then it couldn't possibly be a dumb idea!

I've done that before. Especially when the performance was bad and I was gonna move a bunch of the drum hits.

 

[chadsxe]

I know what ya mean.....

I just can't tell because I KNOW IT IS THERE....does that make sense.....

The mix is full (typical metal) so in theory I should not be a big problem.....

I am going to sleep on it.....

 

[Niels]

On www.ilovemetal.co.uk Andy says :

' I also get pretty heavy with the filtering and roll everything below 600 out.'

I think if you really got a problem with your snare on the OHs and it helps to filter up to 800Hz - go for it!

Another possibility would be to cut it up to 600Hz and use a peak or a shelf filter to go higher. Never tried this - just an idea...:Smug:

Niels

 

[Glenn Fricker]

I take a completely different approach to overheads, so my answer might not be what you're looking for. I do roll off, usually in the 90-120hz range, to get the low end thump from the kick out, and that's about it. Then again, I like to get the bulk of my snare & tom sound from the overheads.

-0z-

 

[Ermz]

800Hz does seem fairly excessive. That would definitely impact on the sound of the cymbals themselves. In metal where seperation is the operative word, I suppose it won't matter all that much, but I think it certainly will be noticeable.

 

[Matt Crooks]

I've done upto 800 and it sounded fine for the project, I recorded one of my projects with someone else, and he went up to 1k. I normally cut at 600hz though.

 

[Suicide_As_Alibi]

Similar to what Niels suggested: Have you tried putting the high-pass at the same place you normally do, finding where the bulk of the snare is, and just cutting that region with a dip rather than a cut or shelf? Obviously it depends where the snare is, but that way you might be able to improve the sound without affecting the cymbals as much if there's still a chunk of lower stuff in there.

Steve

 

[Glenn Fricker]

Well, I just did some quick experiments with rolling off the OH higher up.... and it's a pretty cool effect! I ranged them from 500hz to 1k, vs no rolloff. First impressions: It really cleans things up. The snare has more snap, the toms don't get muddy, yet the attack on them is still in place. Hmmm.... you guys are a bad influence. At this rate, I'm never going to get my drum guide done!

-0z-

 

[SickBoy]

I can't stand that tracking of some overheads I am working with....The snare is 2 far left and sounds like a rubber dodge ball.....

If you need to restore the center in stereo image of badly placed OHs you could use Waves S1 Imager plugin...

My idea at this point is to suck the hell out of the overheads by high passing it to about 800....this eliminates a lot of the toms and snare (which I want).....but I am afraid it might take away from the cymbals.....I listen to it and can not make my mind up.......does this sound like a dumb idea?

Not at all.
The cymbals are higher than 800Hz, I think it wouldn't take anything from them. When I recorded my band we put the drums in an untreated room (and ended up with too 'live' drums), not to mention that I used crapola mics to mic the kit... You can listen to the results at MySpace in my sig.
I made a cut at 700Hz if I recall correctly simply because it sounded the best and the cleanest that way to me... I too noticed that it cleared up the sound a lot, made it less muddy, just like Oz. I think you should be guided by the same principle. If it sounds better to you - then do it!

 

[Andy Sneap]

if it needs it i wouldn't hesitate rolling off up to 800. try a real quick limiter on the oh's to suck the snare out also. that can really help with the tone of your snare.

 

[chadsxe]

Hmm limiter....never thought about that...

I messed around with it last night....like OzNimbus mentioned it clean the hell out of things.....when soloed the roundness of the cymbals kind of goes away from 600 up but in the mix it really does not seem to be that big of a diffrence.....and in my case it is not enough to justify putting this crack head snare I am dealing with back in.....

1:
like I said at about 800 I really start to loose the roundess of the cymbals....but at the same time I really am able to elminate a lot of the snare....pretty much to the point were you can not tell it is in the OH when the full mix is going......this also elminates a lot of the toms......but I guess it is a give and take.....I find myself asking "Do I really need the toms and snare in my OH's".....in a typical Metal mix I honestly don't think it is that important....A few producers today seem to be recorded the cymbals seprate from toms and snare......I know MACHINE did it on the last Lamb of God album and that drum recording is clear as day and does not loose anything


2:
set it at about 600 and notched out the snare with a narrow Q.......this preserves some of the body of the cymbals and a lot more tom.....but the snare is a little bit louder......once agin I guess it will be a give and take....

3:
try getting the snare in check with a limiter on the OH......have not tried this yet but I will in a couple hours when I get back to the studio....

 

[Glenn Fricker]

One observation I made tonight:

Rolling off the overheads sounds great with a spaced pair, but doesn't sound nearly as good with an XY setup.... the snare just kinda dies. Interesting.


BTW, Andy, thanks for the limiter idea.

-0z-

 

[badchi]

Chadsxe,

Have you checked phase alignment? The reason I mention that, I've received some tracks that sound similar to what you described and the snare was out of phase with the overheads creating an effect similar to what you are describing.

Just a thought

 

[chadsxe]

Chadsxe,

Have you checked phase alignment? The reason I mention that, I've received some tracks that sound similar to what you described and the snare was out of phase with the overheads creating an effect similar to what you are describing.

Just a thought

They are a little phase(y) but I am stuck with what I got......I forgot to try out the limiter last night....dumb ass I am....I will try it tonight and give you my impressions....

 

[Glenn Fricker]

The more and more I play around with this, the more I like it. Using the HP filter combined with the limiter gives you some really serious control over things. I still like a fair amount of snare in my OH's, but the ability to tweak it out is very powerful.

How's this for strange: This is exactly the sort of sound I've been after, and the funny thing is, I didn't even know it. "Try to learn something new everyday" has been my motto for years. Thanks guys

 

[SickBoy]

This board is a real treasure chest, eh Oz?

 

[chadsxe]

The more and more I play around with this, the more I like it. Using the HP filter combined with the limiter gives you some really serious control over things. I still like a fair amount of snare in my OH's, but the ability to tweak it out is very powerful.

How's this for strange: This is exactly the sort of sound I've been after, and the funny thing is, I didn't even know it. "Try to learn something new everyday" has been my motto for years. Thanks guys

So since I missed out on going to the studio last night I still have not had a chance to try it out.....want to give me some ballparks as how you are getting the limiter to work for ya......

 

[Glenn Fricker]

I'm using SawStudio's channel compressor.... 10:1 ratio, attack 0ms, release 20ms. Threshold at about -17 -20 db. This is post EQ, of course, so the threshold is pretty low. Play with the attack & thresh to taste.

 

[chadsxe]

I'm using SawStudio's channel compressor.... 10:1 ratio, attack 0ms, release 20ms. Threshold at about -17 -20 db. This is post EQ, of course, so the threshold is pretty low. Play with the attack & thresh to taste.

Thanks I am heading out now to the studio....hopefully I finally try this out....