How to fix phase in overhead mix?

[aviel]

Hey, so i've tracked real drums for the 2nd time on my life, and now when using phase scope i see that there are some hits that are out of phase. for example, if i allign the tracks so the kick is perfectly in phase, the snare isn't right, and the hi-hat also, its also quite logical since not everything is at the same distance.
what do you suggest to do?

 

[JasinElric]

Just make sure your tracks are grouped so the crossfades are all in the same spot before you start moving stuff around.

 

[aviel]

Yes but will you actually allign the phase of the hi hats in the stereo oh track? Isnt this part of the image and panning?

 

[Trevoire520]

Listen, does it sound good? If so then don't worry about it. Stop mixing with your eyes.

Anything with any kind of stereo information isn't going to come up as phase coherent in a phasescope. Thats the point.

 

[TRUIE]

Just make sure your tracks are grouped so the crossfades are all in the same spot before you start moving stuff around.

This video is totally off topic, but did this guy never heard about slip editing ?!
Doing it his way seems like a big waste of time.

To the OP : make the drums sounds good before recording, when placing your mics.
Check phase on everything, and if it's not OK flip it or move the mic.

Aligning everything after recording is not a very good idea and will suck out everything natural sounding on your takes.
I sometimes align the snare close mic with the overheads, if it sounds better, but I don't think it's a thing to do by default.

 

[RedDog]

Suggest you learn to place mics better.

 

[aviel]

Yea well, i guess i didnt place mics too good, it did sound really thin in the mix, but simple allignment helped, i guess there's actually no point in being to maniac about it.

@TRUIE: what do you mean by slip editing? i actually used this video to guide me on drum editing since its the first time i do it on reaper, i am used to pro-tools

 

[TRUIE]

I meant this :

It uses auto crossfades and saves a lot of time.

EDIT : more detailed version here : http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/f-o-h/561958-reaper-slip-editing-tutorial.html
It's for Reaper, but it works exactly the same in Cubase.

 

[botus99]

Placement > "Fixing" in-the-mix

Something mic'd up well is always going to sound way better than something phase-aligned after the fact. Plus, phase-aligning the kick/snare to the overheads completely throws a lot of the "space" of the track out the window. I'm a fan of aligning the overheads to each other (sometimes), but rarely do any other phase-aligning other than that.

 

[vespiz]

Listen, does it sound good? If so then don't worry about it. Stop mixing with your eyes.

Anything with any kind of stereo information isn't going to come up as phase coherent in a phasescope. Thats the point.

I got nothing else but +1

 

[aviel]

Placement > "Fixing" in-the-mix

Something mic'd up well is always going to sound way better than something phase-aligned after the fact. Plus, phase-aligning the kick/snare to the overheads completely throws a lot of the "space" of the track out the window. I'm a fan of aligning the overheads to each other (sometimes), but rarely do any other phase-aligning other than that.

Yup, but in the real world i have to face the truth, i've got paid to mic up a kit, and i did a bad job, now i have to fix it. but yea, for sure lesson is learn for the nex time

 

[botus99]

Yup, but in the real world i have to face the truth, i've got paid to mic up a kit, and i did a bad job, now i have to fix it. but yea, for sure lesson is learn for the nex time

My advice is (aside learning a lesson from this) to phase align the overheads to each other and nothing else. Maybe the overheads are fine already though. Leave the hi-hat, don't try to align the kick to the overheads, MAYBE align the snare. And that's IF AND ONLY IF it sounds bad from the start.

Of course, Trevoire520 nailed the most important thing. If it sounds good, then don't worry about it.

 

[The StabbinCabin]

Not so much in regards to mic placement- but when you're editing drums and need to "cheat" a bit. Sound blankets in combination of a down comforter over the kick drum helps dampen it out of the OHs and room mics. Makes it a little easier whenever you need to edit kicks separately in segments as well as help dampen bleed coming into the kick. Something that might work for you in some applications.

 

[aviel]

So I tried this. Fixing the oh only. But it just sounded out oh phase only when I alligned the oh to the kick AND alligned the room mics also to the kick because they created an ugly hollow sound. I had to take all the room tracks about 3 to 5 ms earlier. Dont you face that issie to?

 

[Jordon]

Dude, aligning the direct mics and room mics with the overheads is going to completely defeat the purpose of all of those different mics.

Direct mics: body, punch and initial attack
OH: overall kit image, attack, sustain (sometimes)
Rooms: Sustain, body

Aligning these will fuck that relationship right up.

Just my opinion.

 

[mva801]

Don't align anything according to their initial transient. Your close mics cannot be perfectly in phase with each other because they're spaced all over the damn kit. LEAVE THEM ALONE. Flip the polarity on your overheads to determine the best sound. If needed, you can nudge them A TINY BIT to get them a little more in phase, but if you just align the initial transient then you're killing the space and depth you get from overheads. You could move the rooms around a tiny bit as well if flipping the polarity doesn't seem to help.

All this SHOULD be done before you ever get keeper takes. Always flip the polarity of your overheads and rooms to get the fattest sound, if that doesn't seem to do anything, try moving them a little and go with what sounds best. I've honestly never seen a pro engineer have to move a ton of drum tracks around to phase them. They're supposed to be all far apart because they're at different distances.

 

[xTomx]

I've never heard direct tracks aligned with the overheads and preferred it unaligned.

 

[egan.]

Don't align anything according to their initial transient. You're close mics can not be perfectly in phase with each other because they're spaced all over the damn kit. LEAVE THEM ALONE. Flip the polarity on your overheads to determine the best sound. If needed, you can nudge them A TINY BIT to get them a little more in phase, but if you just align the initial transient then you're killing the space and depth you get from overheads. You could move the rooms around a tiny bit as well if flipping the polarity doesn't seem to help.

All this SHOULD be done before you ever get keeper takes. Always flip the polarity of your overheads and rooms to get the fattest sound, if that doesn't seem to do anything, try moving them a little and go with what sounds best. I've honestly never seen a pro engineer have to move a ton of drum tracks around to phase them. They're supposed to be all far apart because they're at different distances.

THIS.
The whole "align the whole kit" trend only really works if you're going to trigger everything (basically throwing away all of the bleed). Otherwise, every single thing you move changes that mics relationship to every other piece of the kit. It's literally impossible to get everything perfectly aligned. However, you could easily destroy things.

For example, if you have a coincident OH pair over a tom which is mounted on the kick and you align all of the transients, the kick bleed in the tom mic will be heard before the kick mic itself. We aren't just talking about phase issues but actually ruining transients with weird "foreshadowing hits."

 

[aviel]

I completly agree and understand what you say, they shouldn't be alligned, i know. but after moving the room and overheads mics a tiny beat, everything sounded much more fat, it wasnt as hollow as before. i might be doing something teriblly wrong. thew strange thing is that i miced the kit with a very experienced guy, he didn't monitored every step, but he did listen to the micing and stuff.. i willpost a before and after alligning clip later tonight.