how to hear something behind you

Mendel

Lag Arkane
Jun 11, 2005
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The Netherlands
www.mendelb.com
im trying ti figure out how i can pan something for a spin.

for a example when i have a guitar part recorded and i can pan it left and right ( in nuendo )

but how can i let it like spin around your head ? like when you have a headphone on your head the guitar will go like around your head. from left, to back of your head t oright to front and then back.

how can i do this ? should be cool with a riff before a breakdown !!!
 
I don't really see that being possible in a two channel environment. You could have it so that it sounds like something's not only moving left and right, but toward and away from you, using panning and volume i.e. further away = less volume...

But to actually have it go behind you when all you have is left and right to work with? I don't really see that being all too possible. =/


*and then in comes someone to prove me wrong* :lol:
 
It can be done, but it's a lot more complicated. It involves special algorithms, i think "HRTF" they are called, i cant remember anymore. Maybe the guys that learned in recording schools can still remember this.

Later edit: HRTF = Head-related transfer functions. I guess it is related to the shape of the human ear. You can google it, and maybe tell us the results :D
 
I suppose there are some 3D panning plugins...
I think it's quite possible to achieve the "false 3D" effect on stereo, with phase differences and slight delays, which should make the brain hear the sound as 3D. Not manually though, but with a good algorithm using these tricks...
 
I've experienced it before... some games I've played on my stereo setup I've run EAX 4.0 for and the game has tricked me into thinking the sound has come from behind. It's certainly possible, and very freaky too when experiencing it in stereo.

As said, I think you'd be reliant on algorhithms to do it properly rather than doing it manually... I honestly wouldn't even know where to start.
 
It can be done with HRTF as prititing said but the effect will only be audible with headphones. The HRTF is, as previously stated, the Head Related Transfer Function. The HRTF is based on the filtering effects caused by your head, upper body (shoulders) and ears. Each persons own HRTF is completely different however most algorithms use a standardised HRTF that is most cases is around 80-90% accurate.

If you have a mac you can download soundhack which has a spacial filter that is very effective for stereo placement. If you are on a PC then try this Amphiotik Enhancer. I've never used it personally but it claims to use HRTF to localize audio signals.

If you wan't to do it manually then pan two identical copies of the same track dead center and reduce the volume by around 3-4dB and then adjust the phase (move them both seperately) until they sound like the guitars are behind you, if it doesn't work or it sounds rubbish use a comb filter and adjust until it sounds right (HRTF is based on all three of those changes).
 
Moonlapse said:
It's certainly possible, and very freaky too when experiencing it in stereo.

I freaked out when i listened to some guys playing ambiental stuff on headphones. There was a wood shaker in the left that i swear it went down and up. I mean i could hear the fuckin shaker going down near my feet and then up beyound the ear lever o_O
 
very freaky. . i know that you can easily make something spin around your head in protools or whatever program you use like so. . .

you just automate the volume so it looks like [VVVVVVVVVVV ]
then automate the panning until it looks like [ VVVVVVVVVVV]
so that the beginning of the "V" lines up with the midpoint of the other "V"
therefore the voume is inversely proportional to the panning
sorry for taking things back to high school. . .:puke:

i probably didn't make myself clear enough so. . thats why i dropped out to begin with, jk, just use guitarsuite, they have an autopanner that sounds dope as fuck imo:lol:
 
Moonlapse said:
I've experienced it before... some games I've played on my stereo setup I've run EAX 4.0 for and the game has tricked me into thinking the sound has come from behind. It's certainly possible, and very freaky too when experiencing it in stereo.

As said, I think you'd be reliant on algorhithms to do it properly rather than doing it manually... I honestly wouldn't even know where to start.

my guess would be. . your goal is to recreate the reflections from behind you bouncing off a wall and hitting you in the face kinda. . .nah i have no idea, but gooooooooooooooood luck.
 
*hm*....

I would like to know how that worx....The Last Mneminc album has some of this stuff going on...The Intro is very freaky...When you close your eyes you have the feeling that you are sitting on a chair and two crazy guys coming in...then they sharpen a kind of Knife and they are drilling a hole in your head...really awesome..
In some songs you have the feeling that the Singer is walking arround you...really cool album...

They used some techiques from Game programming...there was also a link to a page where they explained how this works but I list it :(
 
I'm really going out on a limb here but.....

Sounds that get further away from you lose high end. The reverb characteristics also change, and the volume would get lower. I wonder if you could automate between tracks with some high end cut out, less volume, and more reverb as you panned in between left and right?
 
THough it is a project it still is much easier then you think.......it is all about playing mind games with the head.......

I was talking with a great producer last year about this very thing......he had a guitar in a L/R stereo field that sounded like it was flying around my head in a clockwise fashion....I asked him how the hell he did this and he said....

"3 things to consider...

1. panning - left/right
2. reverb & delay - back/front
3. eq (i.e bass, treb) - up:front/down:back

I was in my car one day a few years back and I heard this commercial from the car company Infinity. They did a few pans so you can hear the person talking from the right, then left, yadada. Nothing to special! Then they said something to the sorts of "Now this is how we tune are car" and as he said that I noticed the audio sounded like it was only coming from the back seat. Then he said something else and it was only coming from the front. Then something else and it sounded like it was on the floor....and as you guessed it he ended up sounded like he was on my roof. Need I mind you this is regular FM radio...2 channel stereo. Stock system in a 95 ford. Nothing special by any stretch of the imagination.

So I got to thinking and I went home to figure this out on my moniters...

As mentioned from above Bass and treb can be manipulated to drop the sound back, up, forward etc. Working with this idea and panning/verb I was able to acheive what you are hearing....

Of course you can always go find a plug-in to do the same thing but I never found it to satisfy me...."
 
Iced Earth did something like this during the bridge of Jeckyll & Hyde off Horror Show. You can't really hear the effect through headphones, but you can hear it through speakers. There's a spoken word bit where it sounds like Jon Schaeffer's vocals are coming from behind you. Barlow, iirc, is centered normally in the mix.

I don't remember exactly how they did this off the top of my head, but I think Jon Schaeffer explained it in an interview once. I remember it involved the track coming from behind the listener being out of phase.

Anyone remember this?
 
Exocaster said:
I don't remember exactly how they did this off the top of my head, but I think Jon Schaeffer explained it in an interview once. I remember it involved the track coming from behind the listener being out of phase.

Anyone remember this?

being out of phase with what?....were they using to source mics?....I know moving things out of phase will widen the stereo image...
 
I don't know how to do this, and I'm not very experienced...but my thoughts were this.

You have your left and your right, and your front and back. Left and right would be the same volume, but the front would be a little bit louder, and the back would be quieter than all of them, with a touch of reverb. If theres a way to slightly muffle it, it would give a realistic quality to it considering you're not able to hear things from behind you nearly as clear as in front of you.

I picture the in front of you sound literally being like someone is in your face talking to you. You can feel it RIGHT THERE...so I imagine it being louder making sense with not really much reverb. Left and right could have a touch on it, but the behind you should be a touch more.

I dont know if this would even work...I wanna mess with it myself.

I'm sure the bass and treble differences would come into play though...I'm not sure how that would work though.
 
prowlergrig said:
also, there's a waves plugin (i forget which) that allows you to specify the position of the sound, and to move it around. i don't think it allows you to go behind the listener tho

Ummm......panning?:Smug:
 
This is how it works in my head: you have your track, with four variables - volume, reverb, treble and bass - though the treble and bass essentially act the same as 'presence'. Panning goes without saying. The key positions working clockwise are Front, Left, Back, and Right - the others are just blends of these four extremes.

Front - should have the most volume, the least reverb, the most treble and the least bass.

Left - should be very similar to front. It will seem quieter at the same level because of the panning. The bass will be less obvious off-centre, so you might want to up it a touch (because you need to exaggerate the move to the back). You'll want a *little* reverb just to give the impression that the signal is moving in 3D, not just from side-to-side - but make the bass multiplier on it less than 1x, and put a gentle low cut on it.

Back - is the difficult one. The volume should be at it's lowest, and the high end will be less noticable. The reason I think you should add some bass to the left so that the reduction in treble here is more obvious. The reverb here is what will give the impression of distance - put the bass multiplier of the reverb over 1x here, and put a high cut on it. If you have the option, you might want to reduce the dry signal a touch.

Right - rather than being identical to the left, make the reverb a little higher and the treble a little lower. I reckon that will help your ears relate it to the back better.

Now if these alterations are automated, so they smoothly change from position to position, you should end up with a sample that sounds like it's moving around - but it might sound like it's moving in a circle in front of you (i.e. the 'Back' part will sound in front of you, but further away than the 'Front'). This is where the phase bit comes in.

I can't remember off the top of my head exactly how the phase things works, but I'm going to guess at it: if you have identical copies of the same track but slightly out of phase, it changes the way you percieve them spatially. For it to work, you need a reference track in the centre of the mix. So I *THINK* it will work if you put a dry, clean reference copy of the track slap bang in the middle of your mix and slightly out of phase with the 'moving' track (maybe 20ms or so). Keep it silent until the point when you want your 'moving' track behind you - at that point, bring the volume on it up just to the point where it sounds right but you can't actually hear the reference. Then take the volume on the reference down again as it moves to the right. Then you do the same for the front, but with a second reference track, and the phases the other way round. I'm not sure which way round to put it though - my guess is that for the 'Front', you want the 'moving' track ahead of the reference, and for the 'Back' you want the 'moving' track behind the reference, but it might be the other way round.

For the phase thing to really work though, you need it to change dynamically - so in front of you the reference lags behind, at the sides they're equal, and behind you the reference leads, and it needs to change smoothly as you travel around the circle. Ideally you don't want the volume of the reference to change. I don't know of any plugins that do that though, so it's probably a lot easier to use one specifically for simulating 3D in stereo.

I've never actually tried this though, I'm trying to work it through in my head based on my (incredibly basic) understanding of it - so I could very well be talking complete bollocks :p

Steve
 
Damn... i read about that mnemic recording somewhere.. i just cant remember where i have seen it..

It was just before they released their latest album, and they mentioned something about it having groundbreaking 3D recording stuff on it..