Howard wins award on Human Rights ?
- Thread starter Shannow
- Start date
Kem
Very cynical
Kem
Very cynical
I just want to ask you something though spawn. Do you really think you or I know everything about the history of the Middle East, that it is all as black and white as you have condensed into that paragraph, or that we really have any concept of what it is like to live there and that you can generalise millions of people as being impossible to reason with and blinded by hate? Have you ever even talked to a Muslim person about what they believe in and if they really enjoy seeing innocent people dying, whether they be Americans or their own? Doesn't the fact that the people themselves flee their country tell you they aren't all a bunch of Western-hating beligerent extremists?spawn said:Because the Middle East as a whole fosters hatred. Can you name a period in history when everyone has gotten along there? The religions there foster hatred, they are indoctrinated into it from birth, even the less radical wings of religion there are still deplorable, look at how they treat women, and thats not just the extremist zealots doing it. A man can have a woman stoned to death simply because he suspects she cheated on him. If a woman is raped over there, they have killed the woman because she must have "tempted" him. This isnt some isolated incident, that is by and large the way of life over there. I read an article by a woman who lived there and escaped to the US as her family wanted to kill her because she was raped and had brought shame to her family.
Im definitely not siding with George "He tried to kill ma daddy" Bush mind you, but you cannot reason or make peace with a religion like that.
Yassar Arafat is a terrorist and coward, and should even be mentioned in the same breath as John Howard.
Anyway, I think I have beaten this dead horse enough
Geez Louise.
Yep, I have talked to lots of Muslims, when I worked on the platforms half of the staff out of about 100 people were Muslims, their beliefs are hardline pretty much across the board. One of the ladies who I worked with told me she would never dare walk in step with her Muslim Husband, she always walked two steps behind him, when I laughed, she looked at me like I was crazy, she thought it was incredibly disrespectful and she would "deserve to get hit" if she was so arrogant.
No, it isnt ALL of them in the Middle East, but it is a vast majority of them. It wasnt just one or two people dancing in the streets after 9/11 it was thousands of them, they were giving out lollies to children to celebrate. Where have you ever seen a western culture dancing and celebrating in the streets when something terrible happens? The US and Russia HATED each other in the cold war, did the US dance in the streets and celebrate when Chernobyl happened?
By and large, they dont value other lives over there, much less their own, as evidenced by the number of suicide bombers. The way they treat women is disgraceful, and yes, it is the majority who do that, the minority are the ones leaving the place. It is a place that has bred hatred all throughout history, the religion is an extremist one, not a tolerant one.
Anyway, I think we have gotten off topic, Yassar Arafat is a terrorist and in no way should be compared to John Howard, ever.
There is no "understanding why" of people who create fear and are barbaric murderers. Osama Bin Laden has no justification for what he did, nor does Yassar Arafat. They pontificate that they are fighting for a cause to justify the cowardly murders of innocent people.
No, it isnt ALL of them in the Middle East, but it is a vast majority of them. It wasnt just one or two people dancing in the streets after 9/11 it was thousands of them, they were giving out lollies to children to celebrate. Where have you ever seen a western culture dancing and celebrating in the streets when something terrible happens? The US and Russia HATED each other in the cold war, did the US dance in the streets and celebrate when Chernobyl happened?
By and large, they dont value other lives over there, much less their own, as evidenced by the number of suicide bombers. The way they treat women is disgraceful, and yes, it is the majority who do that, the minority are the ones leaving the place. It is a place that has bred hatred all throughout history, the religion is an extremist one, not a tolerant one.
Anyway, I think we have gotten off topic, Yassar Arafat is a terrorist and in no way should be compared to John Howard, ever.
There is no "understanding why" of people who create fear and are barbaric murderers. Osama Bin Laden has no justification for what he did, nor does Yassar Arafat. They pontificate that they are fighting for a cause to justify the cowardly murders of innocent people.
Kem
Very cynical
You don't have to keep repeating yourself, I'm not disagreeing with you there are extremists who commit horrible acts, or that the treatment of women is disgraceful in alot of parts. All I'm trying to tell you is that us sitting here and ripping them off as a bunch of cowards and murderers, or laughing at their beliefs does nothing to reconcile differences.
They are pissed off for a reason, they've resorted to violence for a reason, and what the U.S. et al is doing there is not helping either. Instead of trying to secure another foothold in the region by invading Iraq and killing innocent people there, or funding Israel to go kill more Palestinians, maybe they should be addressing the reasons in the first place why the Middle East is so pissed off at them.
At the moment they are taking the hardline because they feel threatened. The extremism will die out once they don't have anything to take extremist measures on. I don't have to remind you about how crazy Christianity used to be and how relatively tolerant it has become now. They need a bit of understanding and time. Not us running them down and giving examples of what terrible, bad people they are.
They are pissed off for a reason, they've resorted to violence for a reason, and what the U.S. et al is doing there is not helping either. Instead of trying to secure another foothold in the region by invading Iraq and killing innocent people there, or funding Israel to go kill more Palestinians, maybe they should be addressing the reasons in the first place why the Middle East is so pissed off at them.
At the moment they are taking the hardline because they feel threatened. The extremism will die out once they don't have anything to take extremist measures on. I don't have to remind you about how crazy Christianity used to be and how relatively tolerant it has become now. They need a bit of understanding and time. Not us running them down and giving examples of what terrible, bad people they are.
KoichCPA
Banned
I know what you are saying Kem, but I disagree, as if a magical peace will suddenly settle on the region if the US left, and then all the people who utterly HATE the western culture would kick back, have a few beers and think maybe we are ok after all...
Kem
Very cynical
Of course no magical peace would suddenly settle on the Middle East. You'd have to be totally naive to think that. It would take at least several generations, perhaps even hundreds of years for that kind of bitterness to go away.
Sadly it's not a quick fix but it's more likely to have a lasting effect.
Sadly it's not a quick fix but it's more likely to have a lasting effect.
plattopus
Gravity Eyelids
How the fuck are the U.S. going to reverse generations of ingrained hatred towards everything they stand for? They will NOT be able to just "get to the source of the problem"... the source is the entire foundation on which that country is built.
The only way the Americans can get the ending they want is to overpower the region and anyone who cares to stand up to them. There will never be peace between extremist Muslims and westerners... one or the other is going to win at some stage, and my bet is on the Americans.
But at the same time they don't want to be looking as if they're just invading countries at will... and I'm sure that there is a fair bit of compassion towards the Middle Eastern states from the Americans' side, but they would have to realise that there is ZERO chance that they can come to some kind of amicable agreement.
Hell, I have come to that conclusion and I'm a dumbass <yank>OSSie</yank>.
The only way the Americans can get the ending they want is to overpower the region and anyone who cares to stand up to them. There will never be peace between extremist Muslims and westerners... one or the other is going to win at some stage, and my bet is on the Americans.
But at the same time they don't want to be looking as if they're just invading countries at will... and I'm sure that there is a fair bit of compassion towards the Middle Eastern states from the Americans' side, but they would have to realise that there is ZERO chance that they can come to some kind of amicable agreement.
Hell, I have come to that conclusion and I'm a dumbass <yank>OSSie</yank>.
Don't confuse the middle east with Islam itself. Just because women are treated very badly in some countries over there doesn't mean that their religion told them to do that. I'm 170 or so pages into the Koran at the moment, and so far I've only read that women should be treated well. I'll have a better idea by the end of it though......spawn said:
I'm not religious in the slightest, but am reading it to educate myself and make my own mind up when arguments such as these arise. There are some very strange ideas in that book (believers will live in gardens with running streams, while unbelievers will burn in the fires of hell etc.), but there's some good stuff too. Just because some men in that region take things to extremes or even fabricate ideas doesn't mean that they are following their religion as god intended!
But the way they treat women is viewed as being respectful to them, their interperatation of a woman having to cover herself up completely in 40 degree heat is that then she is respected.
The actual religion itself is not the problem, nor is Christianty actually the problem, its the people following it. Instead of getting more tolerant (relatively) like Christianity as time goes on, it has only gotten more extremist because they are indoctrinated into it from birth and the region fosters blind adherence to what the Clerics say is the true interperatation of the Koran. They dont think for themselves, anyone who dared speak out against it would be killed, because they have a huge group mentality towards their religion. You cant reason with people who take that hard line. Just like you cant reason with some of those idiot extremist Christians.
The actual religion itself is not the problem, nor is Christianty actually the problem, its the people following it. Instead of getting more tolerant (relatively) like Christianity as time goes on, it has only gotten more extremist because they are indoctrinated into it from birth and the region fosters blind adherence to what the Clerics say is the true interperatation of the Koran. They dont think for themselves, anyone who dared speak out against it would be killed, because they have a huge group mentality towards their religion. You cant reason with people who take that hard line. Just like you cant reason with some of those idiot extremist Christians.
I disagree. It isnt just a couple of minority groups causing the problem, if it was, there wouldnt be a problem because the majority would condemn the minority.
The majority of Middle Eastern citizens support anyone against the US. Why do you think they are having so much trouble in Iraq? The people there must KNOW they cant possibly ever beat the US, but they hate them so much they would rather be martyred. They may not support Bin Laden or his ideals specifically, but they dont care what his ideals are because he struck out at a country they despise.
It is more than a few thousand Sydo. WAY more. The US have killed more than a few thousand in direct combat. These people hate so much they are prepared to get in a car and blow themselves up just to kill 2 or 3 westerners. They are so blinded and indoctrinated by the way religion is run over there that the thought that it will mean absolutely nothing doesnt even occur to them. The majority arent stupid fucks, they are dangerous though, just as any Christian zealot is dangerous. Over there its magnified many times due to the fact that just about the entire region is all one hardline religion.
In Iraq, the coallition have killed around 30,000 civilians directly, and recent research suggests that there are around 100,000 more deaths than had there not been an illegal invasion to stop Saddam and his non-existent weapons of Mass Destruction.
There is some evidence to suggest that the "insurgents" are members of the former Iraq army, who are trying to free their country of an invader.
Imagine how we would react, if some country decided to invade Australia.
There is some evidence to suggest that the "insurgents" are members of the former Iraq army, who are trying to free their country of an invader.
Imagine how we would react, if some country decided to invade Australia.
There were massive problems there before they were invaded. Also, Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of people, stole all the money for himself, his sons raped and murdered women, people starved while he lived a lavish lifestyle, all in the name of religion of course.
Iraq was invaded and should not have been, im not disputing that, George Bush is just a warmongering fool looking out for his own interests and his stupidity is dangerous, but stop pretending the place was an amusement park before the US got there.
Iraq was invaded and should not have been, im not disputing that, George Bush is just a warmongering fool looking out for his own interests and his stupidity is dangerous, but stop pretending the place was an amusement park before the US got there.
