I started to like this country until...

[jipchen]

Oh come on, don't let this become another thread about guns in the US. We had that like... 100 times?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Also the US has never experienced the home grown terrorist movements that some European countries, especially Germany, have seen like the Red Army Faction, or even the later Neo-Nazi groups that were stock piling weapons in which to overthrown the government.

Pretty sure that the US has more than it's fair share of paranoid extreme right wingers with weapons "stockpiled"

 

[pikachu69]

People get killed everyday in 99% of countries, it only gets reported when it's en masse or someone important, statistically it's a non-event.

True, but I (and this thread) are talking about people killed by guns specifically. In New Zealand no one was killed by a gun shot last year.
How many died in America by gun shot last year alone? more than the population of the entire city i live in, with out joking!

people chose to use a gun because in your country they are cheap and easy to get hold of. You do not need to be an on to it person to use a gun. I don't believe for a second that every one that commits a crime with a gun would have been just as happy to use any other kind of weapon to commit the crime with. Robbing a store or a house with a pipe bomb is not nearly as effective or convenient. From what you are saying it sounds like you feel that even without guns your crime rate will not be really change....

Europeans don't understand our need to guns to sometimes feel protected

Again, protected from who exactly? your own countrymen? I am not from Europe and I still don't understand. I still quite often don't lock my doors and windows of my house (or car) at night and I feel safe as.

New Zealand is indeed the home of the free, no real racism, free health care, ultra low crime rate and a helpful government that cares for its people both emotionally and financially.

You must remember we are flooded with information about your country every single day we turn on our TV or radio. We know alot more about your country than most of the world knows or hears about ours so until you do it will be hard for you to honestly compare country to country in this way.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Might wanna check my location buddy
<---

In any case, I don't believe that the legality/accessibility or firearms in the US has as much to do with it's high crime rates as you think.
To me it seems that the high levels of crime stem from the fact that it's a country with extremes of wealth and a criminal system that aims to first and foremost punish rather that prevent repeat offending.
Also because it has a well developed law system, and is relatively free of widespread corruption, the crimes rates become exaggerated when compared to poorer, less developed countries.

 

[EerieVon]

True, but I (and this thread) are talking about people killed by guns specifically. In New Zealand no one was killed by a gun shot last year.
How many died in America by gun shot last year alone? more than the population of the entire city i live in, with out joking!

people chose to use a gun because in your country they are cheap and easy to get hold of. You do not need to be an on to it person to use a gun. I don't believe for a second that every one that commits a crime with a gun would have been just as happy to use any other kind of weapon to commit the crime with. Robbing a store or a house with a pipe bomb is not nearly as effective or convenient. From what you are saying it sounds like you feel that even without guns your crime rate will not be really change....



Again, protected from who exactly? your own countrymen? I am not from Europe and I still don't understand. I still quite often don't lock my doors and windows of my house (or car) at night and I feel safe as.

New Zealand is indeed the home of the free, no real racism, free health care, ultra low crime rate and a helpful government that cares for its people both emotionally and financially.

You must remember we are flooded with information about your country every single day we turn on our TV or radio. We know alot more about your country than most of the world knows or hears about ours so until you do it will be hard for you to honestly compare country to country in this way.

I didn't mean petty crimes like robbing a store when I stated he would have used a pipe bomb. I meant someone that is mentally unstable that wants to commit an act of violence against a particular person/group.

Your country sounds really nice, but the US is not that way. Yes, protect ourselves from our fellow countrymen that are looking to make a quick buck by robbing you, breaking into your home, etc in order to feed their drug addiction, family, or whatever and because they sometimes fear the legal ramifications of if they are caught they sometimes will commit senseless acts of violence in which to cover their tracks

 

[colonel kurtz]

The sixth amendment anyone?

what about it?

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

 

[TheWinterSnow]

In any case, I don't believe that the legality/accessibility or firearms in the US has as much to do with it's high crime rates as you think.
To me it seems that the high levels of crime stem from the fact that it's a country with extremes of wealth and a criminal system that aims to first and foremost punish rather that prevent repeat offending.
Also because it has a well developed law system, and is relatively free of widespread corruption, the crimes rates become exaggerated when compared to poorer, less developed countries.

You nailed it right on the head. Its not the legality of guns that has increased crime. Our education system, and legal system does not try to educated individuals to be productive members to society and only punishes criminals, not rehabilitate them. We have to deal with gangs, homeless/low income people that in the end only care about themselves, will rob, attack and cause others great harm if not death to make ends meet or to keep themselves from further trouble. These criminals do not get guns or other weapons legally, they buy black market weapons that are smuggled here and will still have guns if gun possession was illegal here. So regardless of the legality, criminal activity will not decrease, the reason guns can be legally purchased by law abiding citizens is to protect themselves from criminals who will never follow the law and will do anything they can do get weapons.

 

[SocialNumb]

You want paradise on earth? Check elsewhere but earth. We aren't ready!

My sincere apologies,

Signed, Jorge

 

[jipchen]

You nailed it right on the head. Its not the legality of guns that has increased crime. Our education system, and legal system does not try to educated individuals to be productive members to society and only punishes criminals, not rehabilitate them. We have to deal with gangs, homeless/low income people that in the end only care about themselves, will rob, attack and cause others great harm if not death to make ends meet or to keep themselves from further trouble. These criminals do not get guns or other weapons legally, they buy black market weapons that are smuggled here and will still have guns if gun possession was illegal here. So regardless of the legality, criminal activity will not decrease, the reason guns can be legally purchased by law abiding citizens is to protect themselves from criminals who will never follow the law and will do anything they can do get weapons.

I agree on the first part, good point!

But in countries with fewer weapons there is no higher crimerate so "more guns -> more crime" may not be right, but "more guns -> less crime"
is also wrong. And believe me it's not just your educational system and society that fucks people up.

Plus if someone tries to steal something out of your house and you catch him at it, is it more dangerous for both of you if you both own guns or if noone does? Or.. if only him does. It doesn't really solve the problem but makes a whole lot of new ones. If he points a gun at you, then he'll "just" rob you, if you point a gun back there is a higher chance one might fire it.. which wouldn't be any good either. Imho.

 

[SocialNumb]

Plus if someone tries to steal something out of your house and you catch him at it, is it more dangerous for both of you if you both own guns or if noone does? Or.. if only him does. It doesn't really solve the problem but makes a whole lot of new ones. If he points a gun at you, then he'll "just" rob you, if you point a gun back there is a higher chance one might fire it.. which wouldn't be any good either. Imho.

Now replace the same analogy with a couple of knifes, consider the other options as well.

 

[EerieVon]

I agree on the first part, good point!

But in countries with fewer weapons there is no higher crimerate so "more guns -> more crime" may not be right, but "more guns -> less crime"
is also wrong. And believe me it's not just your educational system and society that fucks people up.

Plus if someone tries to steal something out of your house and you catch him at it, is it more dangerous for both of you if you both own guns or if noone does? Or.. if only him does. It doesn't really solve the problem but makes a whole lot of new ones. If he points a gun at you, then he'll "just" rob you, if you point a gun back there is a higher chance one might fire it.. which wouldn't be any good either. Imho.

Crime will decrease when we (the US) revamp our educational system, medical (especially mental health), and have a stable and well paying job market.

If someone were pointing a gun at you, and you didn't know his mental state--like his desperation level, wouldn't you feel better if you could either deter that person with a equal show of force or if the need arises remove that threat???

 

[EerieVon]

The death of that little girl makes me sick as well. Born Sept 11, 2001 She was there because she was interested in the political process--tragic waste of life

 

[EerieVon]

This is rediculous too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpkxoql4xz0

I hate that asshole

 

[SocialNumb]

I guess what I'm trying to say is: we are, as of yet, incapable of having a utopian society. I don't think we will, ever!

We are fucked up dudes, incredibly fucked up!

Disclaimer: Dude, yeah, he: :Spam: is drinking!

:danceboy:

I'm such a squash!

Cheers!

gonna go kill a phew things right quick, it does me right. :hotjump:

 

[jipchen]

Now replace the same analogy with a couple of knifes, consider the other options as well.

Yeah it would be just as shitty with knifes.
But that doesn't contradict my gun example, because what matter if you both threaten the other one with a knife or a gun? Both options suck, both will probably end bad. Still don't see the need for a gun there.
But really, it's just a cultural thing.. most people here can not understand why you'd feel safer with a gun (I wouldn't) and most people "over there" feel safer with one.
I don't want to fight or proof anything, just make others think about it, and understand the need for a gun myself.

Crime will decrease when we (the US) revamp our educational system, medical (especially mental health), and have a stable and well paying job market.

Agreed

If someone were pointing a gun at you, and you didn't know his mental state--like his desperation level, wouldn't you feel better if you could either deter that person with a equal show of force or if the need arises remove that threat???

Honestly I think it wouldn't matter because if he/she's desperate enough you'll catch a bullet no matter what.. But there's too many variables to judge such an situation anyway. Personally, I would just get the fuck out
Re-threatening (if you want) virtually never works, it just further provokes the opponent - even if you're right - and leads to escalation.
Why do you think don't the policemen point their guns at the heads of the rampaging/stone throwing people at a demo? (at least not in even halfway civilized countries)
Because their fucking fuses will blow and they'll go into rage mode.

I hate that asshole

+infinity. Douchiest move ever.

 

[Perishh]

American's need to realise that their system is flawed and they need to change. There will always be illegal smuggling of weapons, but a gun of your own wont protect you against getting shot. Like its been said before, it will probably only increase the chances.

To the people who are saying 'oh not another argument about guns in the US'. The more we talk about it, the more people are aware of the situation and hopefully one day something will be done about it. These movements often start from something small.

In the meantime 9,000 miles away... i'll continue living happily without a gun and hope that one day the US will feel the same security.

 

[MarcusGHedwig]

YOU CHANGE THE WORLD PARTNER

 

[colonel kurtz]

American's need to realise that their system is flawed and they need to change

hahahaha

good luck with that

the huge majority in this country still think that the good ol' US-of-A is the greatest nation on earth, that we have the highest standard of living, etc. etc.

not only are they completely unprepared to admit that we're totally ass backwards in many respects, but they're far from ready to change anything...

 

[crillemannen]

Due process of law?

Ah sorry isn't there a amendment that says anyone have the right to own a gun and defend themselfs, well that is what i meant anyway haha.

 

[jipchen]

@colonel kurtz: Haha come on, you still got cheeseburgers. Don't feel sad

To the people who are saying 'oh not another argument about guns in the US'. The more we talk about it, the more people are aware of the situation and hopefully one day something will be done about it. These movements often start from something small.

That was actually me and here's the reason: The last thread dealing even remotely with the whole USA / guns / terrorists / blabla topic went really ugly real soon.. but you're right one should be able to talk about it.. that's why I can't stop posting in this thread goddamnit