Importance of mic pre in guitar tracking.

[Carrier Flux]

I'm wondering if any of you folks who have had a lot of studio experience in tracking [especially guitars] have also had experience with low-end mic pres and recording equipment?

The problem I've been struggling with for some time is that my guitar tracks always seem to lack presence. They just never sound that up-front compared to what I hear out there from studio releases. I have a Shure SM57 [which from what I understand many of you use, and get great results with], as well as a number of other low/medium budget mics [shiny box ribbon, Rode NT1], so I suspect my mic isn't the issue. I finally have a decent guitar rig [mesa rectifier pre/mesa 20/20 poweramp], and I have a couple of decent guitars with adequate pickups. Yet no matter what I try I always seem to lack that up-front quality that I hear in other people's tracks.

So about the only thing I haven't tried that I can imagine making a huge difference would be a good mic pre. I've been using lower end stuff such as dbx 286a, pre-sonus tube pres, Groove Tubes The Brick etc... These aren't terrible* pre's, but I know they're no API or Neve, so I'm trying to figure out if that might be what's lacking in my chain.

Any of you guys used low end stuff and compared it with quality gear?

thanks.

 

[Lord Lurion]

You should get decent results with the pres and mics you've cited. The problem lies more on mic placement, cuality of the player and, of course, production. You should be able to get decent results with what you have already.

 

[Ermz]

The pres can cause those lack of presence problems. The cheaper ones are notorious for sounding very '2d' and dull.

I'm willing to bet the problem lies with your amp settings and mic placement though. Every single time I've tracked a guitar I've found that I've had to compensate afterwards by brightening a lot. Actually pretty much everything I record through an inadequate signal chain ends up sounding very dull, and I find the ol high shelf to be my best friend.

You have to keep in mind that the stuff you hear on records is usually pretty heavily processed. If you've heard the guitar samples that Andy and others have posted on here, you can see that without processing, the guitars can sound a little overly mid-voiced. At least that's my own impression.

 

[Youowemeapony]

I think anyone that says the pre doesn't make a difference is retarded. Honestly, everyone acts like people don't know how to take advantage of what they have, or to make the most of mics, and positioning. There ARE people out there who know how to use the gear they have extremely well, but are held back by their signal chain. Otherwise, there would be no reason for audio professionals to use anything better then stock firewire pre's with average quality A/D. Seems like every message board I go to, the same reply about learning the fundimentals comes up.. I'm pretty sure that's just assumed.. if you don't have good tone from the amp, and don't know how to mic a cab, or try different approaches, then you're gonna be stuck with bunk tone.

 

[Lord Lurion]

I think anyone that says the pre doesn't make a difference is retarded.

Nobody here actually said so.

There ARE people out there who know how to use the gear they have extremely well, but are held back by their signal chain.

Totally true.

Otherwise, there would be no reason for audio professionals to use anything better then stock firewire pre's with average quality A/D.

Agreed.

if you don't have good tone from the amp, and don't know how to mic a cab, or try different approaches, then you're gonna be stuck with bunk tone.

More or less what I said.

He didn't say he wants professional results. He said he wants decent tone. He has reasonable equipment to get decent tone (of course, that depends on what decent tone means to each of us). It's obvious that a good pre makes a difference, provided you have the rest of the game right: if you don't, no SSL will save your butt from a dull recording.

 

[Carrier Flux]

He didn't say he wants professional results. He said he wants decent tone. He has reasonable equipment to get decent tone (of course, that depends on what decent tone means to each of us). It's obvious that a good pre makes a huge difference, provided you have the rest of the game right: if you don't, no SSL will save your butt from a dull recording.

I'm actually happy with the tone of the guitar/amplifier, just not with the sound transferring to my DAW. I guess you could say I'm trying to get professional results. My guitar tracks just lack a certain presence that I hear on pro recordings. And that's my only serious complaint to be honest. I like the sound of the guitar, I get enough beef in the recordings, but they're just not up-front enough. They always sound somewhat muffled or dim, even when I run them through EQ or a multiband compressor and boosting the highs and upper mids (although they do sound better when I do this). Would sound clips be helpful?

I think my next step is to find some local music shops that rent gear to see if they have any quality pre's I can rent and play with to see if that yields me serious results. If not, then I know it's in my method, not my gear.

 

[Lord Lurion]

I think my next step is to find some local music shops that rent gear to see if they have any quality pre's I can rent and play with to see if that yields me serious results. If not, then I know it's in my method, not my gear.

This sounds like a great idea! I would love to have that sort of an oportunity. I'm gonna cjeck how much they charge for renting this kind of stuff.

 

[Carrier Flux]

This sounds like a great idea! I would love to have that sort of an oportunity. I'm gonna cjeck how much they charge for renting this kind of stuff.

I don't even know if I CAN, but there are a couple of livesound/rental shops in town that might* have something decent I can rent. I'll be extremely lucky if this is the case, but it's worth checking into, as I have no better option to try out gear.

 

[Kazrog]

Can you at least get tone as decent as this?

http://www.shanemcfee.com/preproduction/5150 Test.aif

This is an SM57 on my Mesa 4x12 cab with a Peavey 6505+ (5150 II under a new name) head, straight into my MOTU 828 Mk II Firewire interface. No processing was used in the computer, this is a straight up recording, one track.

Here's some photos of the setup (isolation makes a BIG difference, are you doing any like this?):

http://homepage.mac.com/shanemcfee/PhotoAlbum6.html

 

[EtherForBreakfast]

Thats a great sound kazrog.

I asked in another thread that got buried, but have you tried the new peavey valveking stuff yet?

Also - I assume you have owned an original 5150 in the past. Did you find that the shared EQ for the rhythm/lead was a bit of a pain in the ass?

For my rhythm sounds, I'm pretty much doing what you've got here. For lead sounds I like a bit less treble and more mid. With the 6505+ and the 3 band EQ for rhy/lead, have you found a setting where you can switch from chunk rhythm to a nice lead without having to eff with EQ?

edit: also, what was the post set to on the head? 2? 2.5? 3?

edit again: as it related to importance of mic pre, i think this clip of kazrog pretty much proves what can be done with proper technique. That is to say, I sincerely doubt that a $2,000 Avalon pre would make this sound _THAT_ much better. I think you start to hit a "law of diminishing returns" when you start to compare.

 

[Lord Lurion]

I think this clip of kazrog pretty much proves what can be done with proper technique. That is to say, I sincerely doubt that a $2,000 Avalon pre would make this sound _THAT_ much better. I think you start to hit a "law of diminishing returns" when you start to compare.

I agree. This clip of Kazrog's sounds very decent indeed. Obviously you would do better with 6000€ worth of acoustic treatment in the room and a 3000€ pre, but Kazrog has got 80% of the job done with his technique, and you can easily tell. Good job, man!

 

[Youowemeapony]

that 5150 sounds pretty sweet. might be a little harsh for my tastes, but then again I'm always recording bands that want tone more in the style of Hatebreed's Perseverance, and not so much straight up metal tone. Does anyone know of a hosting service where I could post some raw audio clips of what I've been doing with guitars lately? I'd like to hear what everyone thinks about what I'm doing.

 

[mxlinus]

Can you at least get tone as decent as this?

http://www.shanemcfee.com/preproduction/5150 Test.aif

This is an SM57 on my Mesa 4x12 cab with a Peavey 6505+ (5150 II under a new name) head, straight into my MOTU 828 Mk II Firewire interface. No processing was used in the computer, this is a straight up recording, one track.

Here's some photos of the setup (isolation makes a BIG difference, are you doing any like this?):

http://homepage.mac.com/shanemcfee/PhotoAlbum6.html

are those purple ones auralex of something else?
nice tone indeed.

I just ordered an AMEK 9098 pre/eq. The other choice I had was the UNIVERSAL AUDIO M-610 but I chose Amek 'cause of the price/value. Only thing I'm concerned now is that 9098 is a solid state pre, and the schematics look just like a behringer one, just better parts. Now I wonder does the "neve design" words cost that extra ?500$.

Well now I just have to try it out. I'll post an comparison over a soundcraft console vs. amek 9098 whenever the pre arrives. Then you and I will get an idea what does a pre do or don't. Would be cool if andy would do a test like this also.

 

[TheSweetener]

Okay, of course a mic pre is not unimportant, but compared to the player, the guitar the amp, the cab(!!!), the mic and the placments it's perhaps 3% of the sound.
I use API pres mainly, but just give me some Behringer pres, I could work with them without "lack of presence". A bad cab for example makes such a difference, a decent micpre makes a little improvement in comparison.

Dear Carrier Flux, keep the money until you have found out how to work with YOUR equipment. A GT brick for example is a very nice one! Just keep on trying. Sounds stupid but...that's how it is.

 

[Carrier Flux]

Okay, of course a mic pre is not unimportant, but compared to the player, the guitar the amp, the cab(!!!), the mic and the placments it's perhaps 3% of the sound.
I use API pres mainly, but just give me some Behringer pres, I could work with them without "lack of presence". A bad cab for example makes such a difference, a decent micpre makes a little improvement in comparison.

Dear Carrier Flux, keep the money until you have found out how to work with YOUR equipment. A GT brick for example is a very nice one! Just keep on trying. Sounds stupid but...that's how it is.

I'll keep trying.

to be fair to myself. I've been trying for 14 years now. heh. Maybe I'm just not noticing the improvements I'm making, and expecting miracles or something, I don't know. I'll post some clips of where I'm at this weekend.

 

[kaomao]

....There ARE people out there who know how to use the gear they have extremely well, but are held back by their signal chain.

I think that Andy with my digi002 can track an album in a very good way, but I can say that with the same set up I cannot obtain the same results as andy.
Andy said that "mic pre doesn't make that big difference, but it's great to work with hi end stuff "
the real difference is how you set the mic.
Here a lot of people showed that with "ok" stuff you can get killer tone
Don't get me wrong, hi end stuff is great, if it's not, people would not buy it.

Maurizio

 

[Kazrog]

are those purple ones auralex of something else?
nice tone indeed.

I just ordered an AMEK 9098 pre/eq. The other choice I had was the UNIVERSAL AUDIO M-610 but I chose Amek 'cause of the price/value. Only thing I'm concerned now is that 9098 is a solid state pre, and the schematics look just like a behringer one, just better parts. Now I wonder does the "neve design" words cost that extra ?500$.

Well now I just have to try it out. I'll post an comparison over a soundcraft console vs. amek 9098 whenever the pre arrives. Then you and I will get an idea what does a pre do or don't. Would be cool if andy would do a test like this also.

The purple foam wasn't exactly a careful purchase. I assume they are Auralex but I don't know. They were the last bits of foam left at Guitar Center and they had just enough for the application here. I'm very happy with my rad purple foam panels though!

I've heard that all of the Neve imitators on the market sound essentially the same as the real thing. Actually, I've experienced this first-hand once, I personally can't tell the difference between the Brent Averills and the real Neves.

For high gain guitars, though, I prefer the sound of an API pre/eq to the Neves. They have a little more bite to them.

 

[mxlinus]

I've heard that all of the Neve imitators on the market sound essentially the same as the real thing. Actually, I've experienced this first-hand once, I personally can't tell the difference between the Brent Averills and the real Neves.

For high gain guitars, though, I prefer the sound of an API pre/eq to the Neves. They have a little more bite to them.

that's good to hear. ofcourse I would have bought an API, but just don't have the money for it. And also, I like that the 9098 has an eq in it. probably a really nice sounding one.