Interesting article about gigging

Read the first few lines and I knew exactly where this was going, and I 100% a-fucking-gree. This "Sell tickets to play" bullshit never made sense to me.
 
Yup. Venues and promoters have their heads up their asses. They're after a quick fix, but their business longevity is... well... non-existent. They get a few years, then someone takes them over and does the same thing.
 
yup, 100% percent agree, I´m circling round the province booking pub gigs with my rock cover band, and to add to this, they even expect you to take a full PA along with the backline, carrying not only drums, amps and instruments but also PA speakers, mixer, mics, mic stand, all necessary cables, etc etc, etc in whatever transport we possibly can (with of course not a dime to rent a van or anything similar); take care of sound, then take it all back. Then they get angry when you haven´t fully packed up and taken everything away 20 minutes after the show cause all the drunk post 3 am pub crawlers are starting to flood the place. 3 gigs we´ve played so far have been around 7 hours of work per day (including transport, unpacking, setting up, soundcheck, show, packing up, transport back) for: 1st show, 60 Euros per person, 2nd show, 70 Euros per person, 3rd show, 70 Euros FOR THE WHOLE BAND OF FOUR (this place doesn´t give you a fixed minimum rate like the first two gigs did, bad turnaround plus the people who went didn´t really drink much, but enjoyed the show instead).

Obviously I´m doing this cause I love doing shows and we play lots of rock classics I absolutely enjoy playing, but I was hoping I could at least get some decent GAS money out of this.
 
Fucking lame indeed. The problem is that when you are in a band and you have always to ask to all your friends on FB, Twitter, real guys, to buy your fuckin' pre-ticket....you start to bother everyone...and no one will come at the shows anymore....
 
I can't say I totally agree here honestly. But it's only because as a spectator I hold musicians in a different class of worth depending on the band or group.

Let me explain (I'm talking value per musician here to clarify):

1. The cover band that can almost literally play anything (talking about a 300+ song band). I would hold them in high value because I can get some hours out of them, many times they happen to travel with a PA and a sound guy and if I ask them to do something reasonable (like turn down) they will oblige. Grandmas and children alike can get into this, they can be booked at weddings, corporate gigs, bars, restaurants, anything. Band fits into many pegs.

2. The small trio/single guitar player. Only this because again the volume is reasonable and they fit into smaller venues. They fall into the comfortable listening area and provide a nice listening experience while you enjoy your beer/dinner/whatever. They appeal to anyone, even the 70 something year old woman in the corner isn't bothered by what your doing. There is a possibility of some turds here, but it only takes one time to weed them out.

3. The tribute regular cover band. Well I still think they should get some cash, but they are not as versatile as the groups above. In some instances they are loud (not saying that is a bad thing but it limits what they can do) and don't have a shit load of songs they can wip out. I'm not discounting this band though I would still expect to have to pay them accordingly as you still appeal to a wide audience range.

4. The touring band. Why do I hold them lower than the above? Well because you are only going to appeal to your fan base and you only play the songs you wrote. I'm still paying you obviously because you need a min promise of $X.

5. The local band. Well, I have you opening for the above and I have to cover their min promise so if I'm in the black I'll throw you what I got but I'm not going in the red to pay you much sorry brah. You probably (unfortunately) only have friends and family as fans anyway. Just telling it how it is. I've heard your CD and it sounds good though.

6. The new band that formed 4 months ago. Yeah man, you have no demo, your usually young, your using line 6 garbage and you sound like you play the same song 8 times. Honestly I don't think you should be playing out yet, but the band above vouched for you so I'll throw you a bone. No way in hell I'm giving you shit though.


All I'm saying is that there is a huge difference between what a black metal band is worth to a bar compared to a guy who plays an acoustic guitar and sings well.


I do agree with the fact that the mentality of bar owners is crazy though. But if they took it seriously a lot of shitty bands would never get gigs (maybe that's a good thing though).
 
I can't say I totally agree here honestly. But it's only because as a spectator I hold musicians in a different class of worth depending on the band or group.

Let me explain (I'm talking value per musician here to clarify):

1. The cover band that can almost literally play anything (talking about a 300+ song band). I would hold them in high value because I can get some hours out of them, many times they happen to travel with a PA and a sound guy and if I ask them to do something reasonable (like turn down) they will oblige. Grandmas and children alike can get into this, they can be booked at weddings, corporate gigs, bars, restaurants, anything. Band fits into many pegs.

2. The small trio/single guitar player. Only this because again the volume is reasonable and they fit into smaller venues. They fall into the comfortable listening area and provide a nice listening experience while you enjoy your beer/dinner/whatever. They appeal to anyone, even the 70 something year old woman in the corner isn't bothered by what your doing. There is a possibility of some turds here, but it only takes one time to weed them out.

3. The tribute regular cover band. Well I still think they should get some cash, but they are not as versatile as the groups above. In some instances they are loud (not saying that is a bad thing but it limits what they can do) and don't have a shit load of songs they can wip out. I'm not discounting this band though I would still expect to have to pay them accordingly as you still appeal to a wide audience range.

4. The touring band. Why do I hold them lower than the above? Well because you are only going to appeal to your fan base and you only play the songs you wrote. I'm still paying you obviously because you need a min promise of .

5. The local band. Well, I have you opening for the above and I have to cover their min promise so if I'm in the black I'll throw you what I got but I'm not going in the red to pay you much sorry brah. You probably (unfortunately) only have friends and family as fans anyway. Just telling it how it is. I've heard your CD and it sounds good though.

6. The new band that formed 4 months ago. Yeah man, you have no demo, your usually young, your using line 6 garbage and you sound like you play the same song 8 times. Honestly I don't think you should be playing out yet, but the band above vouched for you so I'll throw you a bone. No way in hell I'm giving you shit though.


All I'm saying is that there is a huge difference between what a black metal band is worth to a bar compared to a guy who plays an acoustic guitar and sings well.


I do agree with the fact that the mentality of bar owners is crazy though. But if they took it seriously a lot of shitty bands would never get gigs (maybe that's a good thing though).


While I understand and respect your point of view, I find it absolutely ridiculous (and it's actually one of the more infuriating things about the music industry) that cover bands are held in such high regard.

Maybe it's because I come from a background of doing something crazy like writing my own music and trying to build a career out of it (which I was sort of able to do for a while). While people in cover bands may be great players, it's nothing all that exciting to hear the same Journey and EVH covers every night from different lame cover bands.
 
This is a tricky issue, but I do agree with the original article quite a bit. The idea of flipping it on the bar owner is interesting and helps put it in perspective a bit better than explaining your expenses per show to them (they could care less about that).

One problem I have seen first hand is super shitty bands playing for free/beer. It totally ruins the expectations of the bar owner and they are not willing to pay anything to a band that busts their balls to put on a good show. Also, the fact that usually the band is asking to play rather than the bar asking the band to play automatically puts the band at a disadvantage from the start. The weekend dudes that just jam totally shit on the guys that have been doing this their whole lives, and that shit sucks. Most venues seem to have a serious lack of quality control and don't really seem to give a shit if they can get a free 'band'.

The part in the bar owner's response where they mentioned they would pay the band more when they start bringing a crowd is absolute bullshit - that has never happened. I've had my pay cut at a regular bar, but once you agree on a starting rate, it will never go any higher.

There are some local bands here that play out for thousands of dollars, but only after being together for about 10 years. They also only play about twice a year, so it really can't be a full time endeavor.

About the promotion, I've been shit all over by venues here. I make large 11x17" posters and small 8.5x11" flyers here on my computer and print them out full color at Staples for about $0.50 each I think? So every venue would get 4-5 of these to put up all over. About 90% of the time, when we would show up, the flyers would not be up or have been taken down (if we had put them up). One owner even had the balls to ask me when we showed up whey he didn't get any flyers, and I had given him a pile directly when we booked the gig! We have also had problems with the clubs not even spelling our name right on the marquee/signs etc, which boggles my mind since it's on every fucking thing we have, such as that stack of business cards and cd's they were given when we booked the gig.

Club owners are ALWAYS trying to bring your rate down, or keep from paying you. Whining about a slow night and blaming it on the band as much as possible. I've made the mistake of booking the night after big holidays like St. Patrick's Day and the place will be empty, but hell there's nothing we can do about it, the people that did show up loved it, and definitely would not have stayed for hours in an empty bar.

I would think if you have a band at your place WORKING FOR YOU FOR 7-8hrs, it would be common courtesy to hook them up with something to eat or drink. Often times after paying for gas and shit, we would stop at Taco Bell or some place open late since it was cheaper than buying the bar food. It is so fucking lame to get paid and then have to pay the band's full price tab. I started bringing my own drinks to gigs.

In general, bar/club owners are some of the shittiest people I've ever had to deal with.


Don't get me started on non-cover band stuff, that is some real shitty shit when it comes to compensation. I've been in a punk band for 3 years and have made at most $50 total so far. We just play to support the touring bands. Bars just charge $5 door take half that and every band has to split the rest, typically there are 3 bands. That's like $41 per band and we only get half off pbr's. lol.
 
Don't get me started on non-cover band stuff, that is some real shitty shit when it comes to compensation. I've been in a punk band for 3 years and have made at most $50 total so far. We just play to support the touring bands. Bars just charge $5 door take half that and every band has to split the rest, typically there are 3 bands. That's like $41 per band and we only get half off pbr's. lol.


Did the mainstream hard rock thing for a while. Got signed. Singles on the radio, and that band is currently doing some huge tours.

In 3 1/2 years, I didn't see $1 in payment. Seriously, nothing. Sometimes I'd be covered for gas, but rarely. They've been touring nonstop since I left the band (like I said, big tours) and they STILL don't make any money. We went from booking good gigs through shitty venues and agents, to signing a fucked up deal and STILL not getting anything. I'm glad I was fired from that band. Thankfully since I was fired, I'm not responsible for any expenses the band racks up in touring or recording.
 
While I understand and respect your point of view, I find it absolutely ridiculous (and it's actually one of the more infuriating things about the music industry) that cover bands are held in such high regard.

Maybe it's because I come from a background of doing something crazy like writing my own music and trying to build a career out of it (which I was sort of able to do for a while). While people in cover bands may be great players, it's nothing all that exciting to hear the same Journey and EVH covers every night from different lame cover bands.

You're just entirely missing the point. You and I are not the target audience - drunk girls in skimpy dresses and their douche boyfriends in Ed Hardy shirts are who go out and pay for overpriced and weak drinks, tip the bartenders/wait staff, get drunk and dance. What they want to hear IS rehashed Journey covers thrown in with some other classic songs and (most importantly) a lot of Top 40's stuff.

It's all about the market you can sell to. There are (unfortunately) more people wanting to hear Maroon 5, White Stripes, The Strokes, Journey, Aerosmith, etc. in bars than there are people lined up outside some small rock club/venue waiting to listen to whatever up-and-coming original act is billed for the night.
 
Did the mainstream hard rock thing for a while. Got signed. Singles on the radio, and that band is currently doing some huge tours.

In 3 1/2 years, I didn't see $1 in payment. Seriously, nothing. Sometimes I'd be covered for gas, but rarely. They've been touring nonstop since I left the band (like I said, big tours) and they STILL don't make any money. We went from booking good gigs through shitty venues and agents, to signing a fucked up deal and STILL not getting anything. I'm glad I was fired from that band. Thankfully since I was fired, I'm not responsible for any expenses the band racks up in touring or recording.

Mind dropping names? I find that all really, really hard to believe, especially the part about nobody making a dime.

If you're doing 'huge tours,' then you're getting a guarantee, end of story.
 
Mind dropping names? I find that all really, really hard to believe, especially the part about nobody making a dime.

If you're doing 'huge tours,' then you're getting a guarantee, end of story.



PM me if you'd like the story, I don't want to name names on the board.

Or email me, I'm more likely to get the message than through the PM here: jordon.gwp@gmail.com


And maybe the drunk chicks and douchebags would be interested in the newer music if given the opportunity to hear it. Just sayin'.
 
I'll try to do this without naming the main players then.

We signed a deal with an indie label in mid 2010. The label was basically a multimillionaire who didn't know dick about the music industry, but wanted to give it a go. We got an attorney and started negotiating. Little did we know, the drummer was re-negotiating behind our very, very expensive attorney's back. The deal we ended up signing was a 360, but the worst one imaginable. Here's a simple breakdown:

- No signing advance (forget a bonus)
- All expenditures are fully recoupable (standard to a point), but 100% of what was spent must be repaid before we see a dime (also somewhat standard)
- Here's the fucked up bit about that: we would have zero control of what producer we worked with, what tours we were on (he tried keeping the band off of tours because he personally didn't like the music of this or that band, nevermind that we fit with them and they would have been nice tours), transportation, scheduling, etc. We also had no control on where the money was going. Instead of buying a reasonable van and trailer, he would blow money on a larger-yet-broken down rv and a very small trailer.

ALL OF THIS would come out of our pockets. The kicker is that any money that was made off of show guarantees, merch, what ever, had to go back to the label before we saw a dime. Per diems, gas and living expenses...they were all recoupable, but we needed them just to live because we couldnt use any of the money we actually made.

Working with Sylvia Massy (TOOL, Deftones, Sevendust, Johnny Cash, Tom Petty, System of a Down), we tracked 2 songs that ended up getting shelved for 8 months. One of them was eventually released on an EP after I was fired from the band. Then they work with Johnny K on 3 songs. Those two are not cheap to work with.

I wont name names of who they toured with, but I will say that for the genre, it was hard to beat the tours they were on. The unfortunate thing about the tours was the buy-ons for them. Because the label owner is seriously difficult to work with, people had the tendency to overcharge him. He didn't seem to care, he would get the money back one way or the other. Like I said, the band had zero control. It was even written into the contract that the label had the majority of the creative control. Write a song he doesn't like? Say goodbye. Disagree with the label? They fire you from the band.

Like I said, I'm thankful they fired me, because I was able to get out from under all of that debt. Last I heard from the band, they were just over a quarter of a milling in debt to the label.

So yea, they come home from tour, work for a few weeks, pay off their credit cards, then go back out. It's shitty, and I hope things change for them.


For the record, signing that contract was one of the biggest humiliations of my life, and I knew through the whole process that we were getting fucked over. It came down to sign or leave the band, and in my foolishness, I actually thought the band was that important. I've learned otherwise since then.
 
I don't really know how much this relates to a "metal" forum honestly.

I guess that the majority of guys in bands here won't be asked to play in a restaurant.
Exept if the owner wants their meals to be moshed off the table, then I'd take the gig :lol:

The backgroundmusic type of thing, or live music to dance to is another story though.
In that case a bar/restaurant owener is nuts if he expects the band to bring along their own audience.
Those guys and bands who play their own stuff isn't quite the same.
Butt Jeff and Loren pointed that out anyway.
Dunno anything about the dynamics in the jazz scene unfo.

Around here most of the time if we had a gig with a promoter if was something like this:
you have to sell a minimum of tickets with a share of each ticket you sell, and a fixed price as payment. You can get more tickets to sell above the minimum, and those also count to your share.
So it's in your interest to sell a lot of tickets.
I can understand that, since I also organized concerts myself allready. If you hire bands without a solid following you have to do that kind of stuff if you want to give bands without a solid following the chance to play.
And it's anyway not like there are THAT many bands around here that pull lots of audience with their name only ;)

But since that is in the metal/rock scene it's a totally different thing than the stuff described in the article. Cause it's usually not about the venue to begin with.
just my .02
 
Maybe it's because I come from a background of doing something crazy like writing my own music and trying to build a career out of it (which I was sort of able to do for a while). While people in cover bands may be great players, it's nothing all that exciting to hear the same Journey and EVH covers every night from different lame cover bands.

Yeah man as a musician I can't agree more, but at the end of the day the mass public doesn't give a flying fuck about your original tunes and just wants to jam to something they know while they get shit faced and try to hit on the fake tan bar sluts.
 
I'll try to do this without naming the main players then.

We signed a deal with an indie label in mid 2010. The label was basically a multimillionaire who didn't know dick about the music industry, but wanted to give it a go. We got an attorney and started negotiating. Little did we know, the drummer was re-negotiating behind our very, very expensive attorney's back. The deal we ended up signing was a 360, but the worst one imaginable. Here's a simple breakdown:

- No signing advance (forget a bonus)
- All expenditures are fully recoupable (standard to a point), but 100% of what was spent must be repaid before we see a dime (also somewhat standard)
- Here's the fucked up bit about that: we would have zero control of what producer we worked with, what tours we were on (he tried keeping the band off of tours because he personally didn't like the music of this or that band, nevermind that we fit with them and they would have been nice tours), transportation, scheduling, etc. We also had no control on where the money was going. Instead of buying a reasonable van and trailer, he would blow money on a larger-yet-broken down rv and a very small trailer.

ALL OF THIS would come out of our pockets. The kicker is that any money that was made off of show guarantees, merch, what ever, had to go back to the label before we saw a dime. Per diems, gas and living expenses...they were all recoupable, but we needed them just to live because we couldnt use any of the money we actually made.

Working with Sylvia Massy (TOOL, Deftones, Sevendust, Johnny Cash, Tom Petty, System of a Down), we tracked 2 songs that ended up getting shelved for 8 months. One of them was eventually released on an EP after I was fired from the band. Then they work with Johnny K on 3 songs. Those two are not cheap to work with.

I wont name names of who they toured with, but I will say that for the genre, it was hard to beat the tours they were on. The unfortunate thing about the tours was the buy-ons for them. Because the label owner is seriously difficult to work with, people had the tendency to overcharge him. He didn't seem to care, he would get the money back one way or the other. Like I said, the band had zero control. It was even written into the contract that the label had the majority of the creative control. Write a song he doesn't like? Say goodbye. Disagree with the label? They fire you from the band.

Like I said, I'm thankful they fired me, because I was able to get out from under all of that debt. Last I heard from the band, they were just over a quarter of a milling in debt to the label.

So yea, they come home from tour, work for a few weeks, pay off their credit cards, then go back out. It's shitty, and I hope things change for them.


For the record, signing that contract was one of the biggest humiliations of my life, and I knew through the whole process that we were getting fucked over. It came down to sign or leave the band, and in my foolishness, I actually thought the band was that important. I've learned otherwise since then.

I remember this - you recorded in Weed, and I remember the band that was mentioned. Checked up on them, and I can tell you this much...

Your entire situation and that band is a horrible example of "the mainstream rock thing" and was pretty much their own fault. They went about doing it the completely wrong way and are getting fucked now because of it.