Johan's lookalike found! - a 3000 year old mummified aryan? king!

[Metal Ambition]

Now, let me first state that the term "aryan" has obviously been tarnished by 20th century history on the one hand and earlier it was on the other hand raised to exaggeratedely mythical proportions, creating an impression in some peoples minds that this ethnicity or culture were somehow better than other people when in reality they were just one larger entity among many others who were also very impressive and fascinating in their own ways! But I don't think that this historic ethnicity and culture should be tarnished and hidden from discussion due to the deeds of some dictators.

Anyway, this lookalike mummy was found in the northwestern province of Sanandaj in Iran last november. It's most likely a king of the medes since this region was ruled by them during this time:



The greek historian Herodotus had this to say about the medes:

"the Medes had exactly the same equipment as the Persians; and indeed the dress common to both is not so much Persian as Median." (7.62) According to Herodotus, "the Medes were called anciently by all people Aryans; but when Media, the Colchian, came to them from Athens, they changed their name. Such is the account which they themselves give." --- the Medes, History of Herodotus (7.7).

Wiki page about the medes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes

It has been really quiet about this find - it's obviously controversial having been found in a kurdish dominated province - though some claim also that it is a fake but why then make him look like mister Hegg (at least according to my possibly poor eyes)? Remember that 99% of all mummies blacken when they decompose or already when they are treated with the preservatory oils. Obviously this possible medean king has ash-grey wooly hair but I find the facial features very similar to Heggs and also if I dare say so - stereotypically europid .


Mr Hegg:

The mummy also share features with swedish rennaisance king Gustav Vasa who I believe is related to both Odin and Johan (no proof but a large sub-group of swedes should be closely related to his "tiribe" and they definetely resemble each other). All three also lived in exactly the same province of Sweden - namely Uppland (one of 25 landscapes). According to Icelandic scribe Snorre Sturlasson "Odin took up his residence at the Maelare lake, at the place now called Old Sigtun (which is in Uppland). There he erected a large temple, where there were sacrifices according to the customs of the Asaland people. He appropriated to himself the whole of that district, and called it Sigtun. To the temple priests he gave also domains. Njord dwelt in Noatun, Freyr in Upsala, Heimdal in the Himinbergs, Thor in Thrudvang, Balder in Breidablik; to all of them he gave good estates". Now this is of course based on an historical interpretation of Odin - even if there were such a living person the Wotan cult obviously seems to have been older than that.

Gustav Vasa and his sons (I believe that several of his sons had slightly different ancestry on their mothers side more connected to perhaps the north germanic saxons so their father is perhaps more connected to the aeisir and acheamanids in my mind, at least it looks like that). The still picture you see in the video link is one of his sons but the first king that is shown is Gustav Vasa.




http://lrk.lsh.se/Regentlängden/Sve/Regenter/Bilder/GustavVasaBeskuren~__H.jpg

If you want ash grey and wolly hair as well one could take swedish skier Thomas Wassberg as an example:
http://svt.se/content/1/c6/34/02/53/wassberg2_411.jpg

He is perhaps a bit more thin-boned though compared to the other three guys but still an elite athlete.


The medes belonged to the same larger cultural sphere as the acheamanid royal dynasty which came to rule the persian empire but they preceded this empire by several hundred years.

 

[Xurek]

What the fuck are you on about?

 

[Metal Ambition]

What the fuck are you on about?

You always wonder that don't you? I believe that the aesir belonged to the same ethnicity and cultural sphere as the persian acheamanids and medians as well as the greek acheans and Johan is not only singing about the aesir he is also most likely related to them as was Gustav Vasa and both strongly resemble (facially) this newly excavated 3000 year old mummified median king belonging to the tribe perhaps most closely connected to the term "aryan".

 

[Metal Ambition]

By the way in Chinas Xinjiang province they have found a 2 meter tall perfectly preserved natural mummy that was blond and bearded and buried according to greek tradition (recall I made a connection between the aesir, acheans and the acheamanids) - i absolutely not claim that the acheans were all blond, but I believe that they were varied in hair pigmentation.

"Yingpan Man not only had a gold foil death mask -- a Greek tradition -- covering his blonde bearded face, but also wore elaborate golden embroidered red and maroon garments with seemingly Western European designs.

His nearly 2.00 meter (six-foot, six-inch) long body is the tallest of all the mummies found so far and the clothes and artifacts discovered in the surrounding tombs suggest the highest level of Caucasoid civilization in the ancient Tarim Basin region".

This region borders India by the way.

Picture of the Ying pan man though his face has not been revealed to the public:
http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/yingpan_man.jpg


Also the sacred holy text of the persians were the "avesta" and the sacred text of the "aryans" in india were the "veda" and there is funnily enough both a town with the name Avesta in Sweden as well as several places with the name "Veda". Close to one of the veda place namesthere are also many names starting with "ram" such as ramvik, ramsele,ramsforsen and one of the heroes in the veda epos was of course ramayana. The arans also worshipped the cow cause they drank its milk - they didn't kill it - it even became forbidden to hurt cows in india and lactose tolerance is today highest in Sweden and the oldest evidenced case of it has been found in skeletons in Sweden dating back 5500 years, preceding the aryan migrations to india and iran (though the scientist belive it was first spread from central europe).

The aryans of the indian variety though called their mythical enemies in their equally mythical ancestral homeland in the north - for "danavas". This is pretty similar to the "danes" and biblical danaans" In uppland province there is a place called "denmark". Also the rennaisance kings surname was "vasa". But if that is true I believe that they described competing tribes that belonged to the same larger culture.


About the discovered milk gene from 5500 year old skeletons in falbygden in Sweden (it's in swedish but you can use google translate if you interested):
http://www.svd.se/nyheter/vetenskap/artikel_790557.svd

Link to site about this and other mummies from xinjiang:
http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummies.htm

 

[Vilewoman]

I do not think this man is of Norse origins, he looks kind of a typical ancient Persian. They wore long beards, long hair. It was actually quite typical of the times, they could find a dozen Greek mummies looking much the same. (and statues)

You mentioned the man in China, but the Silk Road Mummies were blond and red haired, from Norse origins and about 6 to 7 thousand years old. That is simply amazing.

 

[Metal Ambition]

I do not think this man is of Norse origins, he looks kind of a typical ancient Persian. They wore long beards, long hair. It was actually quite typical of the times, they could find a dozen Greek mummies looking much the same. (and statues)

You mentioned the man in China, but the Silk Road Mummies were blond and red haired, from Norse origins and about 6 to 7 thousand years old. That is simply amazing.

You should focus on the facial features which says more about shared heritage than hair pigmentation. Most people seems to believe the northern europeans or norse people are just one ethnicity but that's not true. Compare Johan and the mummy with the following stereotypical northern european (one certain sub-group of many), Göran Zarchrisson:

http://www.ljgk.se/Bilder/Klubben/Zacke 200.jpg

Now who does Johan have most in common with? - obviously the mummy in my mind. Look at the facial features - the deep set eyes and mild expression (not middle-eastern or south-european eyes nor face), the nose, the vertical forehead etc.!

 

[NewWorld]

hair pigmentation can be misleading, even over just a few years many colours can deteriorate to something reddish...

 

[Tyra]

Yeah, 'cept the Taklamakan/Urümchi mummies are more closely related to the Celts than anything else, judging from the artefacts found with him and his family. The Taklamakan mummies are in no way new finds and have been extensively reserched. Some of the reseach one of my colleagues produced can be found in this book, if you're interested: Mummies Of Urümchi by Elizabeth Barber. She was the archaeologist who examined the textiles. The book will also give you an idea of why the original mummies were not advertised, so to speak. This old man and his family are so old, that if there were DNA, his DNA markers would be present in so many different populations by now, that really, Johan and I are no closer a relative of his than George W. These mummies are exceedingly old, and DNA spreads over time. They're so old that some of the techniques used to make their gear was not present in Scandinavia at the time that this old one lived. I've excavated Scandinavians of a later date, and even then, they did not have the matching techniques.

All of which is not to say that you're not right about Odin, Metal. According to Snorre, that's the way the story goes, but I don't supose we'll ever know. That would be becasue we've not excavated his tomb yet...LOL.

Oh, and hair deteriorates to reddish under certain circumstances, such as in this case. A lot of the bog bodies have red hair, too. I can't remember at the top of my head atm, but I think it's sulfites that causes that. The desert mummies were buried in soil that was exceedingly rich in salt and other minerals. Then they were kept cold and dry from the desert conditions. The hair is then preserved, but not the colour. Take a look at the Egtved bog body, for example. Same thing there.

I think Johan resembles a neanderthal closer than the mummy dude...only in looks though. (What are sisters for, if not to keep one's feet on the ground?!)

 

[Vilewoman]

I wasn't speaking of hair color. I was speaking of style. Long, hair and beards...well kept. Statues do not often show hair color.
Europeans have been found all over the globe. Not surprising they would find one in the Middle East. (Well his features look similar, but I am guessing he has european blood somewhere in his family line and may not actually be of all European descent himself.)
The found a Causcasian man in Washington State. He was 9,300yrs old (according to radiocarbon dating). He has been named "Kennewick man"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_Man

It was once believed only native americans live in the Americas at that time, but after the finding of his skeleton, we now know that to be false. I need to edit this upon reading another website. Apperantly the arguement is still going on about this man's origins, some are saying European, others Ainu.
I am sure Tyra has much better information than I do, about Vikings in Canada as well. I only know what I have read in my archaeology magazine and a couple of internet websites.
I also believe I have read that there was a "Viking style" well found in Rhode Island, about 2thousand years old.


@ Tyra. Johan looks more like a Cro-Magnon. Didn't they find one that was
6'9"? (he's not short enough for neanderthal, never watched him walk but he may drag his knuckles to the ground, hehe)

 

[Hagg]

Speaking of.......... [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrReZ2-3BnY&feature=related[/ame]

 

[Tyra]

I wasn't speaking of hair color. I was speaking of style. Long, hair and beards...well kept. Statues do not often show hair color.
Europeans have been found all over the globe. Not surprising they would find one in the Middle East. (Well his features look similar, but I am guessing he has european blood somewhere in his family line and may not actually be of all European descent himself.)
The found a Causcasian man in Washington State. He was 9,300yrs old (according to radiocarbon dating). He has been named "Kennewick man"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_Man

It was once believed only native americans live in the Americas at that time, but after the finding of his skeleton, we now know that to be false. I need to edit this upon reading another website. Apperantly the arguement is still going on about this man's origins, some are saying European, others Ainu.
I am sure Tyra has much better information than I do, about Vikings in Canada as well. I only know what I have read in my archaeology magazine and a couple of internet websites.
I also believe I have read that there was a "Viking style" well found in Rhode Island, about 2thousand years old.


@ Tyra. Johan looks more like a Cro-Magnon. Didn't they find one that was
6'9"? (he's not short enough for neanderthal, never watched him walk but he may drag his knuckles to the ground, hehe)

Actually, the law suit over Kennewick man has finally been settled! That only took a decade...:Smug: Kennewick man shows Samoan-like features. The Spirit Cave find is just as old or older, and shows basically the same thing (as far as I know).

(That "smug smiley" looks just like my oldest kid when I say anything to her. She looks just like that when she rolls her eyes and hisses "Just no, Mom". First day of highschool today...damn I'm old!)

 

[NewWorld]

This is slightly off the original topic (ok slightly more than slightly), but what exactly does the term "Native" American mean? If I remember correctly, didn't so-called Native Americans come across a land bridge from Siberia or something like that?

 

[Vilewoman]

This is slightly off the original topic (ok slightly more than slightly), but what exactly does the term "Native" American mean? If I remember correctly, didn't so-called Native Americans come across a land bridge from Siberia or something like that?

Yes and no. Yes "some" did cross the land bridge. They used to believe around 10 to 25 thousand years ago, now it is believed about 50thousand years ago. But some evidence has been found that they may have come also by boat, small ones of course. Some believe they come from the Ainu, but DNA testing was done and found that Native Americans are more closely matched to Greek.


@ Tyra...wow, I didn't know they had finally ended that one. I need to check up on a few sites now, thanks.
Also you aren't old, just more experienced

 

[Tyra]

There are several theories. The one about the Bering land bridge, then there's one hotly contested theory where some people may have crossed over on the ice from Europe, and there is one that says some people came from the Pacific via islands such as Easter Island. Each theory comes with its own pros and cons, even the most accepted one. The most widely accepted is the Bering land bridge, but since there have now been finds in more than one location of non-native indians, we must open up to other ideas, I think, whether we like it or not.
A Native American can be defined in may different ways depending on what your discipline is. To some Canadians, a Native is someone who has legal First Nation Status, while others look at culture. I look at physical features (i.e. the way his skeleton is put together, sort of) because I am archaeologist (the features are what distinguished Kennewick Man from other Old Ones, for example - it's what makes him caucasoid). It's one of those tricky things, because today, one can be blonde and blue eyed, English-speaking Christian who works in a Chrysler plant and still have First Nation Status, whereas in terms of archaeology, "Native Americans" are a specific group of people with a specific bone structure, a specific way of living (that leaves "Native American artefacts" behind) and so on. There was a big variety between how different groups lived, hunted, practised their religion etc, just as there is today. The burning question is when they went from being "Asians" (or pre-Russian nomads or whatever, depending on your chosen theory of their origin) to "Native Americans". To establish that, one has to establish whence they came and when... You can ask the same question of Swedes. Define "a Swede". The Saami have lived in Sweden, and over just as big an area as the "southerners", for example.

 

[NewWorld]

ah thanks, clear as mud




The kind of answer I was expecting though.

 

[Bates]

The honest answers usually are... it's when it seems simple and clear that you can be sure someone is bullshitting you.

 

[Tyra]

Yep, clear as mud. A political hot potato and one that I really dislike. It should be clear cut, and in some disciplines it is, but to Joe Blow on the street it isn't. The probelm comes in when you have to decide how many generations away from pure Native American one can be and still claim to be Native American. There are legal definitions for that stuff. Johan and I know someone who is equal parts Native and Scandinavian. If you saw the guy with his very blonde hair and very blue eyes and ravens tatooed all over, you'd never in a zillion years think he had Natvie status, but he does. I highly doubt that there is much in his anatomy that resembles Native American, but his DNA will show Natvie markers. He is astru, despite having been raised by somone who is Native, so culturally he is mixed, and he lives like any other American. Whatever artefacts he and his leave behind for me and mine to excavate, they will not show him as belonging to a Native group. They will show at least one scramaseax, several Thor's hammers and many other typically Scandinavian items, and yet, he always asserts his Native status. It is very difficult to explain how to define Native American without resorting to legal definitions. It is not as difficult to define Saami, because there is not the same assumption of guilt on behalf of the "Swedes" towards the Saami as there is on behalf of many "Canadians" towards the "First Nations". The Saami have been in Scandinavia just as long, if not longer, as the "Swedes", but the Canadians have not been here nearly as long as the First Nations people. That's where the politics come in. I don't understand how we'll ever be on an equal footing if we keep this guilt and special status thing up, because it leads to resentment on both sides. Clear as mud, like you said.

 

[NewWorld]

Yes and no. Yes "some" did cross the land bridge. They used to believe around 10 to 25 thousand years ago, now it is believed about 50thousand years ago. But some evidence has been found that they may have come also by boat, small ones of course. Some believe they come from the Ainu, but DNA testing was done and found that Native Americans are more closely matched to Greek.

I missed that post somehow last night, but anyway my point was why are they called natives if they came from somewhere else originally?

 

[Tyra]

Because the colonial (resad: imperial) system still prevails.

 

[Vilewoman]

I have a question(s) for Tyra...
You being the person that has a great deal more knowledge than I do (sadly I never went to school for this...)

What do you think about the DNA testing I mentioned. Why would the Native American blood be the closest to Greek? I would think maybe Russian or Asian, but the Greek thing threw me.
Any ideas at all about this?