KISS - Past and Present (Moved from "Top 2009" thread)

[Jasonic]

The Voivod, Kiss, Alice In Chains, and Heaven & Hell are all likely to appear in my year-end list as well.

Are you serious about the KISS Larry?
I heard it is a major pile of C-R-A-P.

I only heard the one single, and thought it was pretty poor.

I know you are a true KISS fan, so I would be curious to hear your honest opinion of the album.

I have yet to hear the Voi Vod too.

I really need to join something like EMUSIC again, because I simply don't have the cash flow to purchase CDs like I used to...........

 

[richseered]

I really liked the Kiss album - a 25 year member of the Kiss Army, they've put out stuff over the years that I really didn't like, but "Sonic Boom" really hit the spot for me. It's like a mix of the best of the 70s era with the heaviness of the "Creatures of the Night" / "Lick It Up" era.

I think a big factor in this album not blowing goats is that there wasn't any pressure on them to conform, adapt to a trend, give in to label pressure, etc - and it's probably the first time they've not had that kind of pressure for a LONG time; after "The Elder", their career was on the skids, so there was pressure to be heavier on "Creatures of the Night", which unfortunately wasn't a big success, then there was the pressure of making a comeback with "Lick It Up", and then, although that album did well, by their own admission, they saw that bands like Bon Jovi were having greater success so they followed that kind of formula, which for me hit rock bottom with "Crazy Nights". After that there was pressure to get away from the more commercial sound and back to their roots, with "Hot In The Shade" and "Revenge", more trend-following with "Carnival of Souls", and then the pressure to make a new album with Ace and Peter on "Psycho Circus"; the producer apparently didn't think Ace & Peter were up to par musically, and their managers (A & P's) were also putting pressure on for them to have their own songs on the album, whether the material was up to par or not.

So this time around, they've just gone in there and done what they wanted because there was no pressure on them to be anything other than themselves. Also, Gene was made to play all his own bass parts and focus more on songwriting, and Paul Stanley also insisted that there be no outside songwriters.

On the other hand, I think it's a damn shame Ace didn't get sober during the reunion period and before the recording of "Psycho Circus", because I'm sure he'd have had a lot more involvement if he'd been on form (as he is on his new solo album). What I also found frustrating was that after the initial reunion period and before the "Kiss Symphony" and Aerosmith tour, Peter Criss took drum lessons and got his chops back - again, it's a shame he couldn't have done that before the reunion tour and album. I saw them on the reunion and he played well enough but was nowhere near the level of his playing in the 70s.

Anyways, that's probably too much Kiss talk for one day, my apologies!

Back on more doomy matters - a superb album I got early this year is "A Garland of Tears" by UK doom / deathsters My Silent Wake. They're in the same ballpark as Novembers Doom, but are different enough from ND, and as with ND they put their own spin on the genres they mix, in this case adding an almost medieval sound to some of the songs (which conjures up images of court jesters, which is probably not a suitable image for a Doom album - maybe it would be better if they were sad jesters with the plague).

Their vocalist / guitarist Ian Arkley was previously in Ashen Mortality and Seventh Angel.

I can really recommend them - if you haven't heard them, go ye hence - www.myspace.com/mysilentwake

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

Rich-- being a KISS fanatic myself I'm gonna address a few things you said, I'll keep it brief for everyone else's sake, lol....


1.) The new album Sonic Boom has it's moments, but overall it's not the "return to form" that I had hoped for. By and large this sounds like an album that could've come out in 1983 as opposed to 1977. And that's fine, Paul said he didn't want to do a "retro" album, though I think he kinda did, just more retro-80s than retro 70s. As I've listened to the album it's grown on me more with more listens.

2.) I'm glad Ace and Peter aren't here. Peter got his chops back?? LMFAO. I saw him in 2003 on that Aerosmith/KISS tour and he was so-freaking-bad. It actually ruined the show for me. I also saw them play about five times on the Farewell 2000 tour, and Ace was really bad on like four out of five of those shows. He completely forgot the solo to "Calling Dr. Love" one night!!! People can say what they want about Gene and Paul, but all I know is every time I've seen them, they've given me my money's worth. Peter and Ace have not, both when they were back with KISS and also at the solo shows I've seen of theirs. I'll always be fans of theirs, and Ace (well, the old Ace, 1973-1982) will always be my idol. But after seeing and hearing how fucking tight and amazing they were at Graspop 2008 with Tommy and Eric, I'd never want those other guys back again. As for the "blasphemy" of them wearing those makeup designs, well that doesn't bother me either. I've paid good money to go see many tribute bands do the same thing, so I'm fine with going to see the ULTIMATE tribute, mixed with the real deal. Best of both worlds for me. And their playing on the new album is alot better than what we got on "Psycho Circus" to say the least.

I know you weren't really adressing that subject but I figured it's gonna come up (always does haha) so I nipped it in the bud ;-)

 

[OPETH_DT]

I have to agree. There's a reason why the reunion tour went so well in 1996, and it's all about progression. As much as people will say what they want to, there's also a reason why Ace and Peter have done solo tours! It's up to Gene and Paul to keep this going. I am on the fence as to whether or not to buy "Sonic Boom", or "Anomaly", for that matter, only because if everyone brought their best to the table in 1998 instead of lawyers, etc, "Psycho Circus" would have been 10,000 times better than it turned out to be. Seeing them in 1998 and in 2000 didn't feel the same as it did in 1996. I had a chance to see them in Boston a few weeks back, but had class that night.

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

I'm going to see them in a few weeks, hopefully. The show I saw last year was definitely the best overall KISS show I'd experienced since 1996.

 

[richseered]

Hey Larry, I agree completely - I wasn't too clear in my previous post, but I much prefer having Tommy and Eric in the band to Ace and Peter, I was taling more in a "what if" kind of way, as in, why couldn't they have got their acts together during the reuinion period. I don't really care about them wearing the makeup either! Sacrilege in some quarters, I know, but I'm with ya on that one!

As for Peter's chops - I only saw the "Symphony" dvd when he rejoined, on which I thought his playing was better than when I saw them on the reunion tour, where it was hard to tell if he was in time or not - his kit was triggered very heavily and sounded weird. As I say, on the symphony DVD he sounded a lot better. Sorry to hear he didn't play well on the tour - they didn't play here in the UK on that tour, so I was going off the dvd and comments from Gene that PC had played "well, but weakly".
I saw Kiss on the Revenge tour in 1992, and they kicked all kinds of ass, and that line-up nailed the oldies better than the original line up did on th reunion for my money. I'm hoping they play some dates over here next year, as I don't think they'll play over here very often in the future and would rather have the last time I see them be with Tommy and Eric kicking ass as opposed to a nostalgia event where I have to mke big allowances for Ace and Peter not being up to snuff. Ace was ok when I saw them in 96, but from videos I've seen of later shows in the reunion era, the substance abuse sounded like it finally caught up with his playing. Glad he's sober now whatever else he does.

As for the new album - maybe I have rose-tinted glasses on,lol, but I think I was expecting it to suck very badly, and I thought Psycho Circus wasn't that great apart from a couple of songs, so I was pleasantly surprised with Sonic Boom. I agree that it's got more of an 80s production than 70s - "Modren Day Delilah" sounds like it could have been on "Lick It Up". It really hit me on first listen though, and I enjoyed it more than any album they've put out since "Revenge"

 

[richseered]

Hey Larry, I agree completely - I wasn't too clear in my previous post, but I much prefer having Tommy and Eric in the band to Ace and Peter, I was taling more in a "what if" kind of way, as in, why couldn't they have got their acts together during the reuinion period. I don't really care about them wearing the makeup either! Sacrilege in some quarters, I know, but I'm with ya on that one!

As for Peter's chops - I only saw the "Symphony" dvd when he rejoined, on which I thought his playing was better than when I saw them on the reunion tour, where it was hard to tell if he was in time or not - his kit was triggered very heavily and sounded weird. As I say, on the symphony DVD he sounded a lot better. Sorry to hear he didn't play well on the tour - they didn't play here in the UK on that tour, so I was going off the dvd and comments from Gene that PC had played "well, but weakly".
I saw Kiss on the Revenge tour in 1992, and they kicked all kinds of ass, and that line-up nailed the oldies better than the original line up did on th reunion for my money. I'm hoping they play some dates over here next year, as I don't think they'll play over here very often in the future and would rather have the last time I see them be with Tommy and Eric kicking ass as opposed to a nostalgia event where I have to mke big allowances for Ace and Peter not being up to snuff. Ace was ok when I saw them in 96, but from videos I've seen of later shows in the reunion era, the substance abuse sounded like it finally caught up with his playing. Glad he's sober now whatever else he does.

As for the new album - maybe I have rose-tinted glasses on,lol, but I think I was expecting it to suck very badly, and I thought Psycho Circus wasn't that great apart from a couple of songs, so I was pleasantly surprised with Sonic Boom. I agree that it's got more of an 80s production than 70s - "Modren Day Delilah" sounds like it could have been on "Lick It Up". It really hit me on first listen though, and I enjoyed it more than any album they've put out since "Revenge"

 

[great_kthulu]

wow, I cant beleave two of my guitar idols worship Ace, or at least early ace, Larry and Dime.

Myself, Ive always thought kiss would be an awsome live show, but I never really like there music that much except when I was a little kid and thought it was the heavyest thing on the planit. (Im talking when i was 5-7)

 

[Jasonic]

Back on the topic of KISS, I want to throw something out there.
I suppose the main reason I am so down on KISS is that my biggest fear of the band's future is starting to happen.
A few years ago, Paul and Gene said numberous times in interviews that KISS itself is bigger than it's parts, and that someday it could continue with other musicians in their spots even.

I suppose having Tommy and Eric take on Ace and Peter's personas / makeup, might be the first step in the experiment.

To me, as a lifelong fan (literally), it speaks that the band's future will be a parody of itself.

I mean, it has been done before. The fans LOVED Eric Carr (with and without makeup).

The fans already know and like / appreciate Eric Singer as a member of KISS.

Why couldn't they give them their own persona in the band?

I am sure, given everything else going on in his life (both business and personal) that it would be Gene leaving first.

Maybe I am reading too much into all of this.
I just have zero interest in KISS (the brand), as opposed to KISS (the band)

 

[Novembers Paul]

I don't really see it as guys trying to be Ace and Peter. They wear the uniform of the part they play in the band. It's all about the visual, not the mystique anymore. Seeing different personas would be very awkward to watch. This way, it creates something comfortable with the fans, and instead of focusing on a new look, you can enjoy a "KISS" concert for exactly what is is. THat's how I see it anyway.

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

I can understand and respect your feelings Jason, in not being interested in "Kiss, the brand". But here's the realistic truth in my mind-

These guys can't continue much longer. Paul is starting to lose his voice (sad but true) and Gene being in his 60s and singing "Christine Sixteen" is just getting ridiculous. That being said, I still love the characters, I love the songs, and I love the whole show. I don't look at KISS as being a band in the traditional sense like Deep Purple or Mastodon or Carcass. To me KISS is more like the rock 'n roll version of a Broadway show, which tend to go on long after it's creators and initial actors have long since passed or moved on. That is the vision that I think Gene and Paul have had for a while now, and I agree and respect that too.

For some people there's really no interest in seeing or hearing KISS unless it's those four original guys in that makeup performing those songs. There's nothing wrong with that at all, if that's what your interest is then that's fine for you. But I think KISS is a multi-generational band who'll continue to entertain and appeal to new generations of fans, regardless of who is behind the makeup. As long as they're playing the role well and the music and show are still entertaining, then that's really what matters.

Basically, KISS is their own tribute band. And frankly I'm perfectly fine with that. If Gene and Paul took the more typical route and just retired from music and ended the band completely, yknow what I'd end up doing? Going out and paying to go see KISS tribute bands play. Because I love the music and the makeup and the whole spectacle. So if I'm gonna go do that, why wouldn't I want to see THE tribute band, with the full show and everything done professionally and on a big scale?

I realise that the whole thing is controversial in that truthfully, this concept of keeping the band going long after the founders are all gone and making it more like a traveling musical show, is really new and never been done before quite like this. But then again, KISS has always been different and unique and groundbreaking in many ways so I get it.

So like I said, I realise that many people will never accept this and can't hang with the whole concept and that's ok, nothing against them. But truth is, if KISS has their way, the whole concept and show will be around long after you're all gone anyhow! lol

 

[Jasonic]

To me KISS is more like the rock 'n roll version of a Broadway show, which tend to go on long after it's creators and initial actors have long since passed or moved on.

Agreed 100%
I just hate seeing this happen to the band which, along with Cheap Trick, are 100% responsible for my falling in love with rock n roll.

They are smart businessmen. It will work, and it will make money.
No matter how they do it, there will be demand from folks who have never seen KISS. Though, I mean, how many studio songs did Ace truly play on? I think on almost every album where he was a member, a session axeman played lead on many songs, if not all of them (Destroyer perhaps???)

I suppose in this era, where young fans don't care about complete albums, or the packaging, they care even less about who is "behind the mask" (pun INTENDED!)

I have always had a tough time with bands I love losing key members. I haven't checked TROUBLE out live yet with Kory. I had tickets a couple times, but never ended up going to see Maiden with Blaze (A decision I regret BIG time), and never bothered with Priest with Ripper (A decision I regret even more than missing Maiden with Blaze).

This philosophy definitely works with today's music fan.
It's just different times.

 

[Jasonic]

This way, it creates something comfortable with the fans, and instead of focusing on a new look, you can enjoy a "KISS" concert for exactly what is is. THat's how I see it anyway.

Agreed. It will certainly continue to draw in younger fans who never experienced classic KISS live, or even the reunions from 10 years ago. Will be an easier sell than Paul and Gene plus two new personas.

Good for them, as it will make them $$$.
Just not something I will personally pay for.

 

[richseered]

I got into Kiss in the early 80s, when "Lick It Up" was their current album, so I've always been used to line-ups without all 4 original guys. And much as I'm a fan of Ace & Peter, I'd rather see the current band live than the original four at this point in time.

Not sure how I'd feel about an all-new-members line-up after Gene and Paul hang it up, but I can see how Kiss is one of the few bands that would be able to do that, and it wouldn't surprise me at all! And if you're going to go and see a tribute, it might as well be one that would be able to do it on the same scale as the current band, which I'm sure "Kiss - The Sequel" would be.

The only other band I know of that's done something similar is a Spanish boy band called Menudo, who change members every couple of years. Ricky Martin is one of their former members!

And whatever people think about Gene and Paul, their work ethic can't be faulted. For all the talk of them being crassly commercial and only in it for the money, they could have just called it quits after "The Elder" flopped and been ok financially, or maybe after the "Creatures of the Night" tour wasn't successful. I think it shows that they're passionate about Kiss and enjoy what they're doing at least to some extent, to have hung in there and built the band up again.

Have any of you guys read Chris Lendt's book, "Kiss and Sell"? He was an accountant who was part of the band's management team in the 70s and 80s, and he says that at one point in the late 80s, the band lost a huge amount of money through no fault of their own when a land investment they'd put most of their money into fell through. Once again, Gene and Paul (and Eric and Bruce Kullick at that point) worked their butts off and kept going. Of course, the bottom line is that they kept going for money, but at that point they carried on making new music and touring rather than go for the easier option of an original line-up reunion, although obviously that happened eventually.

 

[Jasonic]

I have no doubts that KISS can pull off whatever they wish.

I do agree that they trudged through some tough times.

I mean, anyone recall KISS headlining BLAZE FEST in sunny Villa Park, IL, @ the Villa Park Odeum?????

 

[great_kthulu]

i said it befor, i dont really like kiss's music that much, but I would love to see them live. To me it doesn't matter if none of the origanal members are there as long as whoever is replacing them can put on as good of a show.

 

[Novembers Paul]

Hey Guys, I moved the KISS conversation into it's own thread. It deserves it's own topic, and the conversation is cool seeing the different takes on the band.

 

[Jasonic]

Thanks Paul - Sorry if I took the original thread too far off topic....

 

[OPETH_DT]

I think I have that Blaze Fest show on VHS. Sooner or later, we knew that Paul would have to start losing his voice. The other fact of the matter is seeing where at times Gene wouldn't care whether he remembered the correct lyrics or not, and when he didn't, he would just stand there and giggle or smirk (This happened at a Revenge tour show that I attended). The reality of it was that Paul was the leader of this band for awhile in the 80s, while Gene was in "actor" mode. For me personally, after meeting them numerous times in a short time span, seeing them in '96 for the first time was like "OK, what next?". I still have my autographs and remember each show, whether it be a KISS, Ace, or Peter show, plus I can say that I've seen all 4 original members play in a club, just not at the same time. I have friends who did a tribute band in this area for a few years and did a great job with it. It just seems odd that age is finally catching up to them after being a fan for so long. I can remember getting on the RV in 2004 before the show with The Gathering and Agalloch, and what was playing? The "Rock And Roll Over" disc. I think I will go listen to that now.

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

Jason, I hear what you're saying. Thing is that I think the real trick to "accepting" the future of KISS carrying on without original members is that you have to look at it completely differently from just about every other band that's existed. I can't even compare something like, for example, Kory being in Trouble, to new people coming in and out of KISS because I think of it in such a different light. For those of us who grew up with the originals, alot of people have a hard time accepting anyone other than Gene, Paul, Peter, and Ace portraying those characters (demon, spaceman, etc.) because we associate those people with those characters. But I do agree with Gene and Paul now that those characters have taken on a life of their own, and as evidenced by the number of amazing KISS tribute acts out there, it is in fact possible to carry on the characters and the show without the original performers doing it. Other bands have in fact tried to pull this off to some degree (anyone at all recall "The New Monkees" from the mid-1980s??) And it doesn't work. I really think only a band like KISS can pull this off because let's face it-- they always were more Broadway and carnival attraction than a real rock band anyhow. And I don't mean that as a negative statement, I think it was a brilliant move on their parts.

I truly believe that in 1996 when they decided to reunite and put the makeup back on, at that point KISS stopped being a "band" in the more traditional sense, and became all about the show, the gimmick, an act that could be carried on for years.

Being honest here.....while I was curious to hear "Sonic Boom" and think it's cool they did it, truthfully I don't think KISS needs to bother with making any more records. By and large the people going to see their shows don't care about new music from the band, and even though this current tour is supporting that cd, they're doing only one new song live. The rest of the show is the usual old hits. The diehard KISS fan in me of course would like to see them do more of the new material live but truthfully I would go to see them even if they were again playing the same ol' 17 songs live they always do, because I just enjoy the show and the whole nostalgic vibe of it. On a side note though, I love that they've been occasionally throwing in a rare gem here and there, like "Love Her All I Can" or "All American Man", just to keep things interesting.