KISS - Past and Present (Moved from "Top 2009" thread)
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Novembers Paul
Member
No worries about it going off topic Jason, that's what moderation is for. And at least our "Douche Bag" moderator didn't get involved. haha!
Ha!
I totally hear and understand what everyone here is saying.
It isn't fair to compare KISS to any band for that matter.
Larry - TOO funny that you brought up the New Monkees, as I was going to mention that as well.
NvmbrsDoom5
Member
KISS are trying to reinvent the wheel a bit and usually when that happens people have a tough time adjusting and accepting it at first, so I understand.
Oh man, that "New Monkees" thing was just awful. A perfect example of how NOT to do something like that.
Tom, yknow you made a good point about Gene. While he's always been prone to forgetting lyrics and stuff, it does seem like we've gotten a "watered-down" demon from him since the 1990s. I think he got a bit of that fire back when they first did the reunion, but now it does feel a bit more like "going through the motions" at times. I think Paul is as good as ever, even with his voice starting to go....I mean mind you, he can still sing great, but he just can't hit the highs like he used to, so some songs are a definite strain. For me, Paul is the real heart and soul of KISS, and when he's gone is when it'll really change for me. As I said, I'll be happy to see a good "official KISS tribute" band play anytime. But even when I see good tribute acts, the "Paul" is usually the one who tends to be lacking the most, because very few people can do what he does the way he does it.
Oh man, that "New Monkees" thing was just awful. A perfect example of how NOT to do something like that.
Tom, yknow you made a good point about Gene. While he's always been prone to forgetting lyrics and stuff, it does seem like we've gotten a "watered-down" demon from him since the 1990s. I think he got a bit of that fire back when they first did the reunion, but now it does feel a bit more like "going through the motions" at times. I think Paul is as good as ever, even with his voice starting to go....I mean mind you, he can still sing great, but he just can't hit the highs like he used to, so some songs are a definite strain. For me, Paul is the real heart and soul of KISS, and when he's gone is when it'll really change for me. As I said, I'll be happy to see a good "official KISS tribute" band play anytime. But even when I see good tribute acts, the "Paul" is usually the one who tends to be lacking the most, because very few people can do what he does the way he does it.
great_kthulu
Greater Evil
- Apr 27, 2009
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this is kinda off topic, but it does invlove a stage band, green jelly just released a new disk, which i find in and of itself a joke 
Novembers Paul
Member
Dragon_Unearthed
Tattooed by darkness
This is how I see the future of KISS.....kinda like what the Globetrotters have become......you dont go to see basketball being played, you go to see a show put on..can anyone actually name anyone on the Globetrotters these days?
NvmbrsDoom5
Member
Being serious for a moment, one thing I gotta give Ramsey is that he is a dead fuckin' ringer for Paul. He's got the looks and the moves down pat, it's uncanny....
I think that the Globetrotters comparison isn't completely unfounded. Obviously there's major differences between a novelty sports team and a novelty band but, yeah the concept is generally the same.
I surf YouTube now and then watching various clips of KISS tribute bands from all over the world, and you pretty much NEVER find a band where you say "Everyone in this tribute is spot on!" But, now and then you come across some guys who are just way above average and I can't help but think, "Damn why can't you just take the best guys from these bands and put together one amazing tribute?" If Paul and Gene get their way, that's basically what will happen. There's this one guy, I forget his name, but he's traveled all over the country performing in various KISS tribute bands as the Spaceman (Ace), and he is fucking PERFECT. I mean he has the look, the moves, the riffs, the vocals, all down pat, it's really amazing. If they ever needed someone to fill that role (if Tommy moved on or whatever) they really need to get this guy.
I think that the Globetrotters comparison isn't completely unfounded. Obviously there's major differences between a novelty sports team and a novelty band but, yeah the concept is generally the same.
I surf YouTube now and then watching various clips of KISS tribute bands from all over the world, and you pretty much NEVER find a band where you say "Everyone in this tribute is spot on!" But, now and then you come across some guys who are just way above average and I can't help but think, "Damn why can't you just take the best guys from these bands and put together one amazing tribute?" If Paul and Gene get their way, that's basically what will happen. There's this one guy, I forget his name, but he's traveled all over the country performing in various KISS tribute bands as the Spaceman (Ace), and he is fucking PERFECT. I mean he has the look, the moves, the riffs, the vocals, all down pat, it's really amazing. If they ever needed someone to fill that role (if Tommy moved on or whatever) they really need to get this guy.
Larry, a couple of bands have actually sourced new members doing the exact same thing as you, surfing youtube or elsewhere on the net. Journey got their latest vocalist Arnel Pineda after Neal Schon saw him singing Journey songs on Youtube, Yes recruited a temporary replacement for Jon Anderson after seeing a tribute band on Myspace, and Boston did the same thing too (although they now have 3 or 4 members who sing lead).
There was a Thin Lizzy tribute from Ireland whose singer was so close to Phil it was scary - he's only a young guy, but I first saw him at a Phil Lynott tribute gig at which Phil's mum, Philomena Lynott, was the guest of honour, and she said her jaw hit the floor when she saw him, and jokingly suggested that Phil might have had an affair with the guys mum!
Here's a photo of him (his name's Matt) and you can see Pihlomena in the background
They played at a Phil Lynott tribute that my wife and I put on a ocuple of years ago, and they were excellent. The whole band are in their late teens / early 20s, and the standard of musicianship is incredible. I think they're on ice at the moment while the guys focus on doing original material.
There's a really good Kiss tribute here in the UK, I think they're called Dressed To Kill. Their singer has done solo "Paul Stanley" shows too - that's dedication!
On the subject of bands carrying on without original members, one band that I thought should never have attempted it was so called "Thin Lizzy" with John Sykes at the helm. Don't get me wrong, I think he's an incredible player, Scott Gorham too, but there are some bands whose identity is so tied up with a key member that carrying on as if nothing's happened with new members is too cheesy or even disrespectful for words (this was the view of a lot of hardcore Lizzy fans, i.e. that the Sykes-fronted band was dragging the name through the mud, cancelling tours, line-up changes every few months and playing "metalized" versions of classic Lizzy songs with harmonic squeals every 5 seconds!)
This is where Kiss have a distinct advantage in that their image is based on the four iconic characters, so whatever one's feelings about the idea of them carrying on with all new members, they could at least recreate the original band's show and image pretty accurately.
There was a Thin Lizzy tribute from Ireland whose singer was so close to Phil it was scary - he's only a young guy, but I first saw him at a Phil Lynott tribute gig at which Phil's mum, Philomena Lynott, was the guest of honour, and she said her jaw hit the floor when she saw him, and jokingly suggested that Phil might have had an affair with the guys mum!
Here's a photo of him (his name's Matt) and you can see Pihlomena in the background
They played at a Phil Lynott tribute that my wife and I put on a ocuple of years ago, and they were excellent. The whole band are in their late teens / early 20s, and the standard of musicianship is incredible. I think they're on ice at the moment while the guys focus on doing original material.
There's a really good Kiss tribute here in the UK, I think they're called Dressed To Kill. Their singer has done solo "Paul Stanley" shows too - that's dedication!
On the subject of bands carrying on without original members, one band that I thought should never have attempted it was so called "Thin Lizzy" with John Sykes at the helm. Don't get me wrong, I think he's an incredible player, Scott Gorham too, but there are some bands whose identity is so tied up with a key member that carrying on as if nothing's happened with new members is too cheesy or even disrespectful for words (this was the view of a lot of hardcore Lizzy fans, i.e. that the Sykes-fronted band was dragging the name through the mud, cancelling tours, line-up changes every few months and playing "metalized" versions of classic Lizzy songs with harmonic squeals every 5 seconds!)
This is where Kiss have a distinct advantage in that their image is based on the four iconic characters, so whatever one's feelings about the idea of them carrying on with all new members, they could at least recreate the original band's show and image pretty accurately.
Rycher
Oskee Wow Wow!
I only saw Kiss once, on the Farewell tour in 2000 in Champaign. We had 7th row seats, and I was so blown away that I was seeing the original Kiss, with the full makeup and stage show from so close, that I didn't care about the music or performance. I'm a casual fan anyways.
But I will agree that Peter was completely out of his mind. He came out to sing Beth for the encore, sat on a stool and said "HELLO CHICAGO!"
Paul came back out when he was done singing and just said "somebody get him a map."
That is still the funniest concert moment I've ever experienced.I agree, initially, when they first did the tribute gigs in 1996, I thought it was a really cool way for the surviving members of Lizzy to pay tribute to Phil, and everybody thought that it was just for a one-off string of gigs, but then Brian Downey and Darren Wharton were no longer involved, and Scott Gorham said in "Classic Rock" that they were seriously considering a new album. Sykes has now left the band to resume his solo career, so hopefully that won't be on the agenda anymore.
Normally line-up changes don't bother me either, I love the Tony Martin Sabbath stuff too, and the new AIC. I suppose it all boils down to how a band handles moving on after a key member leaves or dies - with AIC, Sabbath, AC/DC and Kiss, it's been an ongoing process, but with Lizzy it seemed like (after the initial tribute gigs) a cash in.
Back on to all thing Kiss, but with a hint of Sabbath
has anyone ever heard the White Tiger album that Mark St John ("Animalize" line-up)and David Donato (very briefly in Sabbath, never recorded with them) recorded?I remember it got a great review in Kerrang back in the day, but I couldn't find it anywhere at the time.
And does anyone else like the "Asylum" album, apart from me, lol? I thought it had a couple of fillers, but tracks like "King of the Mountain", "Who Wants to be Lonely", "Tears Are Falling" and a ocuple of Gene's songs were pretty cool.
Paul came back out when he was done singing and just said "somebody get him a map."
You can not top Paul's on stage banter. Best in the biz.
I saw them on the LOST CITIES tour they did, in like 96 or something, in Peoria, IL.
Paul kept saying things like, "Forget Chicago, Peoria is the ROCK CAPITAL of Illinois"!!!
Then I saw them in Rockford a couple years later for the original FAREWELL TOUR (hahahaha, yea right!) tour, and he did the same schtick, but saying "Rockford is the ROCK CAPITAL of Illinois"
I was personally excited about KISS again, when Psycho Circus came out, as I thought it was a great album. I still say you can pit the song "Raise Your Glasses" to ANY classic KISS tune. It's a shame that wasn't a single, nor was it ever played live. If you don't know it, check it out:
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Novembers Paul
Member
That is funny, but I can say, when on tour, its VERY easy to get lost. On several occasions, I had to ask "Where the hell are we?" When everyday is like the movie "GroundHog Day" you lose track of date, day of the week, and location quickly. Maybe we all go out of our minds a little. haha
True, and a lot of bands, esp underground ones, when issuing their dates generically list the biggest city surrounding the town they are actually playing in
(IE - Most big bands list the Allstate Arena / Rosemont Horizon as "Chicago")
(IE - Most big bands list the Allstate Arena / Rosemont Horizon as "Chicago")
OPETH_DT
Member
For me, it was seeing the "Unholy" video for the first time, when I realized that there was still that "character" left in him somewhere. That kind of spark, I think, helped as far as what was to come less than 5 years later. Once it started getting old, so to speak, and the TV show took off, it was like "Here we go again!" It still comes down to being a business, and mind you, they will never see the financial woes that existed in the 80's. It was almost unreal but not surprising to read about some of that stuff. Going into the reunion, Ace and Peter had signed five year contracts after the "Unplugged" recording sessions for MTV. There was pressure from the network because they were not going to have them do that show unless Ace and Peter were brought into the mix. Everyone thinks it was a "surprise". I am with you as far as Paul being the heart and soul of this whole thing. It's a shame that it will have to end some day. At least he won't have to sing cover songs like Peter has due to a lack of originality. Paul could still write lyrics and whatnot for anyone who is talented enough to sing his words, long after he stops singing on stage. He has that legacy about him, and he is the only one, in my opinion.
NvmbrsDoom5
Member
Rich-- I can understand people's discomfort with the Sykes' version of Lizzy. I never got too bent about it because I love Sykes and Gorham and I think they have a right to be going out and playing all of those songs. Calling it just Thin Lizzy might've been a bit of an injustice I guess but again it didn't really bother me too much. Probably should've slightly renamed it, like Creedence Clearwater Revisisted was and so forth.
I heard that White Tiger album back in the day....I'd have to hear it again to really critique it properly, but I recall not being all that impressed with it overall.
As for "Asylum", that's one of my favorite non-makeup albums. I think it's a slightly better album than Animalize, but not quite as good as Lick It Up. Crazy Nights doesn't rank well for me at all, and Hot In The Shade is so-so. Revenge was the closest they ever got to a real "return to old-school form" during the non-makeup years. Carnival Of Souls might sound very 1990s alternative/grunge influenced but I think it's a GREAT record. And honestly man, I'd rather hear those guys singing the kinda lyrics they wrote for that album than some of the ridiculous lyrics they came up with for "Sonic Boom". Like I said before, Gene singing his "perverted monster man" lyrics nowadays just comes off far too creepy old man-ish, LOL. Songs like "Hate" and "Childhoods End" from Carnival Of Souls are some of the best stuff I've heard Gene do in the last 20 years, easily. That album gets a bad rep.
I think "Music From The Elder" is an outstanding record too, with a few clunkers in there. Not really a true KISS album but it's really good for what it is, and beats the snot out of Psycho Circus or Crazy Nights, at the very least!!
I saw KISS on the Asylum tour twice, in January and March of 1986. My friends and I met Eric Carr, though I was too chicken to go up and talk to him. He was incredibly nice, no attitude at all, and got a kick out of this group of 12 and 13 year old kids fawning over him. To this day I've rarely met a "Rock star" who was as friendly and nice as he was, which is a big reason I'm not too fond of meeting well-known musicians even now. It's always the good guys who die too soon.
Tom-- I don't have a lot of respect for Ace and Peter these days, to be honest, because I think they're just as fucking greedy and money minded as Gene and Paul are. All the fans want to think "Oh Ace and Peter are the COOL ones", yeah well unfortunately for me I've had the displeasure of being around both of those guys, and they're just as snarky and conceited as anyone. The only reason Peter isn't in the band anymore is because he was only in it for the money and demanded more money. He always felt he should earn as much as Paul or Gene. People can debate on that, but to my mind he doesn't, and he should've been thrilled to get a second shot at glory as it was. He was prepared to screw over the Japanese and Australian fans by pulling another of his infamous "give me what I want or I'm quitting" scenes just before their tour, and so they called his bluff and let him go and took Eric instead and threw the makeup on him. Ask anyone who has known Peter throughout his career and almost any of them will tell you that he has most often been his own worst enemy when it comes to that shit. Ace might not be quite as concerned about the money end of things, but when you are fucking up at gigs and causing your bandmates and management and crew alot of headaches because you can't put the fucking bottle down, well I'm sorry but I don't have much sympathy for that. Again here's a man who went from playing in shitty clubs in 1995 to being on a sold-out tour a year later in stadiums, and still it wasn't enough to get him to keep it all straight. Who cares if they didn't all get along so well anymore? It's a job, and extremely lucrative well paying job, and they had enough money and clout to have their own rooms, their own limos, etc., and keep away from each other as much as possible. Like I said previously in this thread, when I paid alot of money to see them play several times in 2000 and had to watch & listen to Ace fumble his way through the shows, that broke my heart, and really changed my opinion of the guy. I almost wish I'd never even gone to those concerts now.
I heard that White Tiger album back in the day....I'd have to hear it again to really critique it properly, but I recall not being all that impressed with it overall.
As for "Asylum", that's one of my favorite non-makeup albums. I think it's a slightly better album than Animalize, but not quite as good as Lick It Up. Crazy Nights doesn't rank well for me at all, and Hot In The Shade is so-so. Revenge was the closest they ever got to a real "return to old-school form" during the non-makeup years. Carnival Of Souls might sound very 1990s alternative/grunge influenced but I think it's a GREAT record. And honestly man, I'd rather hear those guys singing the kinda lyrics they wrote for that album than some of the ridiculous lyrics they came up with for "Sonic Boom". Like I said before, Gene singing his "perverted monster man" lyrics nowadays just comes off far too creepy old man-ish, LOL. Songs like "Hate" and "Childhoods End" from Carnival Of Souls are some of the best stuff I've heard Gene do in the last 20 years, easily. That album gets a bad rep.
I think "Music From The Elder" is an outstanding record too, with a few clunkers in there. Not really a true KISS album but it's really good for what it is, and beats the snot out of Psycho Circus or Crazy Nights, at the very least!!
I saw KISS on the Asylum tour twice, in January and March of 1986. My friends and I met Eric Carr, though I was too chicken to go up and talk to him. He was incredibly nice, no attitude at all, and got a kick out of this group of 12 and 13 year old kids fawning over him. To this day I've rarely met a "Rock star" who was as friendly and nice as he was, which is a big reason I'm not too fond of meeting well-known musicians even now. It's always the good guys who die too soon.
Tom-- I don't have a lot of respect for Ace and Peter these days, to be honest, because I think they're just as fucking greedy and money minded as Gene and Paul are. All the fans want to think "Oh Ace and Peter are the COOL ones", yeah well unfortunately for me I've had the displeasure of being around both of those guys, and they're just as snarky and conceited as anyone. The only reason Peter isn't in the band anymore is because he was only in it for the money and demanded more money. He always felt he should earn as much as Paul or Gene. People can debate on that, but to my mind he doesn't, and he should've been thrilled to get a second shot at glory as it was. He was prepared to screw over the Japanese and Australian fans by pulling another of his infamous "give me what I want or I'm quitting" scenes just before their tour, and so they called his bluff and let him go and took Eric instead and threw the makeup on him. Ask anyone who has known Peter throughout his career and almost any of them will tell you that he has most often been his own worst enemy when it comes to that shit. Ace might not be quite as concerned about the money end of things, but when you are fucking up at gigs and causing your bandmates and management and crew alot of headaches because you can't put the fucking bottle down, well I'm sorry but I don't have much sympathy for that. Again here's a man who went from playing in shitty clubs in 1995 to being on a sold-out tour a year later in stadiums, and still it wasn't enough to get him to keep it all straight. Who cares if they didn't all get along so well anymore? It's a job, and extremely lucrative well paying job, and they had enough money and clout to have their own rooms, their own limos, etc., and keep away from each other as much as possible. Like I said previously in this thread, when I paid alot of money to see them play several times in 2000 and had to watch & listen to Ace fumble his way through the shows, that broke my heart, and really changed my opinion of the guy. I almost wish I'd never even gone to those concerts now.
Larry - that was exactly the feeling among even the most hardcore Lizzy fans I know, that if they'd gone out as "Sykes and Gorham" or some variation like CCR, most people would happily go to gigs and buy new music from them, but going out as Thin Lizzy was too much. At one point, Gary Moore even said the same thing - he admitted that even he wasn't in the definitive line-up, which was the "Live & Dangerous" line-up with Brian Robertson and Scott Gorham. I think part of the reason fans are very protective about Phil Lynott is that when he died, the UK and Irish gutter tabloids were really vicious about him, i.e. "junkie rock star dies" kind of thing.
Glad to hear I'm not alone in liking "Asylum"! I'd place it about the same in their overall catalogue too, not quite on a par with "Lick It Up", but better than "Animalize". Great story about Eric too!
I remember hearing "The Elder" for the first time, and thinking "hey, it's not THAT bad", lol. I was surprised by how good some of the tracks considering the bashing it usually gets. I agree about the "Carnival of Souls" type lyrics too, much preferable to the "dirty old man" stuff. "COS" grew on me after a couple of plays, need to give it another listen, it's been a while since I heard it.
Glad to hear I'm not alone in liking "Asylum"!
I'd place it about the same in their overall catalogue too, not quite on a par with "Lick It Up", but better than "Animalize". Great story about Eric too! I remember hearing "The Elder" for the first time, and thinking "hey, it's not THAT bad", lol. I was surprised by how good some of the tracks considering the bashing it usually gets. I agree about the "Carnival of Souls" type lyrics too, much preferable to the "dirty old man" stuff. "COS" grew on me after a couple of plays, need to give it another listen, it's been a while since I heard it.
OPETH_DT
Member
I hear you loud and clear on that one. Ace and Bill Aucoin had no issues whatsoever when it came to signing my copy of KISSTORY. Peter, on the other hand, says to me before he signed it "You know, I don't get paid for this.", after Mark Montague was nice enough to let me on the tour bus back in '95. I have no respect for him at all. When I hung out with Ace, my friend had to sit him up on the couch in the dressing room after he played. All that shit takes a toll and I saw it first hand. He said that he was sober at every solo show I went to, which was about 5 or 6. As they say, the more things change, etc. If they had toured here with Eric Singer instead of Peter in 2000, I would have had no problems seeing that, because I knew what I would have been paying for. I had Mark sign that White Tiger album when I had the chance to meet him, but I have never listened to it. I never got the chance to meet Eric Carr, but out of all of them, he probably would have been the best out of all of them. He played, and with consistency, not to mention he could live without having to worry about that whole character issue with the makeup for the short time he wore it. From what I understand, and this is where I lost repsect for Gene, he was in the hospital and Gene fired him in 1991 before he had his aneurysm. He signed a 10 year contract after the Unmasked tour, if I remember correctly, and after that 10 years had expired, he was to recieve an equal share, just like Gene and Paul. The initial reason I had heard was that it was over insurance and medical bills. There are times I regret meeting all of them and missing out on any chances to meet Eric.
Hmm, I've heard a lot of stories, rumours and conjecture about what exactly happened with Eric - I think Paul Stanley addresses it on the vocal commentary on one of the "Kissology" dvds, Vol 2 I think - from what I remember it was a case of the band needing to work (the idea of Kiss as mega-rich multimillionaires was no longer true at that point, that came after the reunion - they'd had a huge financial loss in the late 80s, according to their former accountant, when an investment went sour)) and Eric being sidelined but not fired - the idea was that they got Eric Singer in and said Eric C could come back as soon as he was well enough.
Also, someone asked Gene point blank about not cutting Eric off financially when he was in the hospital - Gene said that they were actually giving him advances on his royalties to cover medical bills.
Not questioning your post, or saying that Gene & Paul are above reproach, but I've seen this topic come up *a lot* on various forums, especially Metal Sludge, and there's usually a lot of conflicting information and Paul & Gene are never given the benefit of the doubt - as I say, I don't know the whole story, and maybe they did treat Eric badly, but they have addressed it at least on a couple of occasions.
Also, someone asked Gene point blank about not cutting Eric off financially when he was in the hospital - Gene said that they were actually giving him advances on his royalties to cover medical bills.
Not questioning your post, or saying that Gene & Paul are above reproach, but I've seen this topic come up *a lot* on various forums, especially Metal Sludge, and there's usually a lot of conflicting information and Paul & Gene are never given the benefit of the doubt - as I say, I don't know the whole story, and maybe they did treat Eric badly, but they have addressed it at least on a couple of occasions.
NvmbrsDoom5
Member
Yknow, that whole thing with Eric being fired and the money stuff and all that......honestly, take it from me guys, noone is really ever gonna know the whole story and it's just too easy to assume things or believe rumours. I can say first hand that fans and outsiders very often don't know what really is said and done behind the scenes within a band, and they don't really understand alot of the hows and whys. I know Gene and Paul are known for being greedy and tough and all, but something tells me that they wouldn't have been THAT cold blooded to just fire Eric while he was in the hospital and in pain like that. They may have had to let him go in order for the band to continue on legally and all, but I don't think they really wanted to let him go if you catch my meaning. And I don't blame them for having to get back to work when they did, KISS is a business with lots of people who work for them and need the band to continue working and earning money so that these people can also continue to work and be paid and feed their own families. I think sometimes people forget that fact, that KISS or any really professional band is a business.
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