let's discuss TIME SIGNATURES!

[Sunbane]

Originally posted by Orelans
Hey Sunbane... Just out of curiosity; where is your avatar taken from? who is it?

It's actually a character I've designed and drawn it myself, but it's probably inspired from a something that I can't really place. A bigger version is here:

http://w1.651.telia.com/~u65102548/images/Demon_Dream.12_small.jpg

It's only a half baked CG job - I didn't have the time to pour my full effort into it.

'bane

 

[theodyssey]

Hey bane... i have to say for a "half baked" job, that is pretty damn killer. anyway, i am getting a lot out of this conversation since i have a lot of the same questions. I typically play just what sounds natural with whatever feels right. But i want to sum up what i have heard from everyone to make sure i understand...
The top number is equal to the number of beats in a measure
the bottem number defines what note gets a full beat
does this sound accurate?

 

[the alumnus]

ok, i have one quick question about time signatures.
why would one use 8/4 time as opposed to 4/4 time? how would this change the way the music feels? it seems to me that, for example, putting four whole notes in one measure or putting one whole note in a measure and then another in the following measure in 4/4 time would have the same result. am i missing something?

 

[Feanor IV]

@Alumnus: The difference would be that if using 8/4 you would accent the first note more than the fifth one. If you used 4/4 the first and the fifth note would get an equal accent. For example:

Suppose we a phrase of eight quarters (the notes A B C D A B C A). There are these two ways to signature it:

(4/4)
| A B C D | A B C A ||

(2/4)
| A B | C D | A B | C A ||

(8/4)
| A B C D A B C A ||

(3/4)
| A B | C D A | B C A || *

*: this way we would begin with a measure which would only include two quarters, which is like having a silent quarter in the start of the measure, but I don't know how this thing is called in English.

Now, below I will show how I would accent the notes in each of the measures. I will use the following symbols, the left one means more accent than the one on its right etc.

@ > * > .

(4/4)
| A B C D | A B C A ||
  @ . . .   @ . . .

(2/4)
| A B | C D | A B | C A ||
  @ .   @ .   @ .   @ .

(8/4)
| A B C D A B C A ||
  @ . . . * . . .

(3/4)
| A B | C D A | B C A || 
  . .   @ . .   @ . .

So the result would be totally different. Especially the last one causes a lot of difference. I'll try to record a midi or something and post it to demonstrate the difference better.

 

[NAD]

Nice thread! I didn't read the whole thing, but there's some good questions and answers in here! My favorite time sig. is 7/16, but I write in 12/8 most of the time (when I'm not stuck in 4/4).

 

[Orelans]

@Sunbane: I like the character. Good job.

man I have to learn more about time signatures.

@NAD: You even have a favourite one?

does anyone know if Opeth has any odd time signatures? or or at least ones other than 4/4?

 

[nergal_S]

Ok i will explain this to you before you get me confused

4
-
4

top note is how many beats are in the messure

and the bottom not is what type of note each one is, for example this means that each note is messured in quarter notes and there are 4 notes

if i were to change the bottom number to 8, we are messuring in 8th notes get it?

 

[RETIREDTrapped]

Originally posted by matcauthron
Hello everyone, I'm new here!

I have one question on that subject. Recently I started to write a new song and after a couple of hours improvising, I got something that happened to be in 7/4.

I'm so specialist, so I just guessed it was 7/4 because most riffs lasts for 7 beats. Is it reason enough? Maybe it is in fact 3/4 + 4/4... Is there a difference between 7/4 and 3/4 + 4/4 (for example)?

When I looked for answers on that subject, I got lost with stories about strong beats and weak beats...

Thanks!

Well, 3/4 + 4/4 is the same as dividing your 7/4 time sig in terms of accents into 3 + 4 (So it goes ONE two three FOUR five six seven ONE two three FOUR five six seven)

 

[NAD]

Originally posted by Orelans
@NAD: You even have a favourite one?

does anyone know if Opeth has any odd time signatures? or or at least ones other than 4/4?

Yeah I have always wanted to write a song in 7/16 but I still haven't.

Opeth doesn't use too many odd time signatures, but the new album (Deliverance) has a handful on there.

 

[theodyssey]

there is actually a lot of interesting things you can do in 4/4. I have written riffs that i am like "man, i don't know how the hell to count that" but i write it out and it's 4/4... I think it's kind of a mix between the riff's structure I(if it's not heard very often) and the drums.

 

[the alumnus]

ok, one last question. what would be the difference between writing a piece in 4/8 time played at a medium tempo, and a 4/4 piece played at a fast tempo? if the tempo of the music is faster on the 4/4 piece, it would sound the same, correct?

 

[NAD]

Originally posted by the alumnus
ok, one last question. what would be the difference between writing a piece in 4/8 time played at a medium tempo, and a 4/4 piece played at a fast tempo? if the tempo of the music is faster on the 4/4 piece, it would sound the same, correct?

For them to sound the same you must play the 4/4 piece at exactly twice the tempo of the 4/8 piece.

 

[harryM]

Originally posted by Orelans


13/8 is thirteen eighth notes per measure... but how does that effect how the music will sound as opposed to say 12/8, which is a common swing time sig?

Hey man,
Well, often it will have a kind of "stutter" at the beginning of each bar ...well, that's how I think of it anyway. One good way of getting an idea of how different time sigs sound is tapping your foot, and placing an accent at the beginning of each bar. So here's 4/4 (or 8/8)...
DOWN-up-down-up-down-up-down-up-

btw the up is your foot when it is up in the air mid way between taps...

So if you try 9/8, you get this...

DOWN-up-down-up-down-up-down-up-down-DOWN-up-down-up(and so on)

the second accented DOWN is the beginning of the second bar. See what I mean about the "stutter" thing. It's because of the odd number of eighth notes, and you get the same type of thing with 13/8.

Hope this helps,

-Harry

 

[Orelans]

the way you have it written there it seems that for 9/8 it is just 5/4 except that you accent the note of the next measure immediately after the last note of the previous measure...

I can see the "stutter" that you are talking about...

 

[harryM]

Not exactly... 5/4 (or 10/8) is 5 quarter notes (or 10 eighths) per bar, 9/8 is 4 1/2 quarter notes (or 9 eighths) per bar. And the accent at the beginning of each bar is not part of what defines a time signature, I just put it in their to make things clearer - you can "hear" the time sig better that way.

What instrument do you play, btw? If you play guitar, I can come up with an example riff in 9/8 or something for ya...

-Harry

 

[Jo]

The time signature is

how many units to use
-
what kind of units to use

Time value and notes


Excellent website Tyr! www.musictheory.net

 

[Orelans]

Originally posted by harryM

What instrument do you play, btw? If you play guitar, I can come up with an example riff in 9/8 or something for ya...

-Harry

yeah, I play guitar mainly... and that is the instrument that I write most music for.

And that would be great if you could give an example...

cheers

 

[ShadowLioness]

Great thread. One thing that I think has not been brought up yet is that you can make things sound "crazy" even in 4/4 time with the use of rests. When you start using rests along with say sixteenth notes you can still get a syncapated effect. Adding triplets is also good combined with rests. A triplet in 4/4 would be three eighth notes played in one beat (hope that makes sense). If I can find an example I'll post it .

 

[harryM]

Originally posted by Orelans
yeah, I play guitar mainly... and that is the instrument that I write most music for.

And that would be great if you could give an example...

cheers

Hey man,

Try this, it's from Slayer's "Jesus Saves", and is in 9/8. Play it all in steady eighths.

A |-----8-7---8-7-11-10-|
E |0-0------0--------------|

Or this...also steady eighths throughout

D |-----------------------7-|
A |--7-8-10---7-8-10----|
E |0----------0-------------|

For an example of 5/4, here's the opening riff of Slayer's "Black Magic". The first bar is in 4/4, the second is 5/4.


A |------7---------7-8-|------7-8-10-8--------8-7-|
E |0000----0000-----|0000---------------10------|
---x----- x --x----x ----x ----x ----x -----x ----x----

The x's are where the beats occur. 5/4 is a lot easier than 9/8 to play, it's just an extra beat at the end of the bar.

Hope all this helps,

-Harry

 

[Orelans]

I used to listen to Slayer all the time and I was never aware they had a 9/8 time sig in 'Jesus Saves'... I'll have to re-visit that song again...

And I have also been playing Mahavishnu Orchestra's 'Birds of Fire' which is in 18/8 time... very cool sound; very, very great piece of music...