Low pass filter on a speaker cab?

So I was doing some designing/research for my Wolfe Amplification 4x12 speaker cab, and whilst looking at frequency response graphs for speakers, I got this crazy idea...

Why not throw an inductor on each speaker and 6db low pass them at 12,000 Hz?

When recording, we usually do it around that freq anyway... And most V30 loaded cabs always have that strange high end sizzle going on (if you look at the freq response graph, it has some weird shit going on in the upper frequencies).

I'm very curious as to what this would do to the in room sound, and recorded. 0.10 mH inductors are cheap as hell, so I think I will buy them and test this out. Who knows, maybe I'll be the first person to try this, and maybe it will sound good?

Edit- I also ventured the thought of a high pass filter too. Throwing a 200uF cap in with the inductor would yield a high pass of around 80Hz I think....

Hi, have you also tried conjunctive filter (OT primary) or zobel filter (OT secondary). Ime, conjuntive filter removes effectively harsness and high end spikes when using V30's. You can change filter values what you like best. If you have time you could make some comparison clips.
 
The only problem I can see you running into is the fact that V30's only have a frequency range of 70hz-5000hz anyways - not sure an hpf will make much of a difference, but it might reduce some fizz from the amp like a graphic eq would?

If you look at the response graph for a V30, it reproduce sound way higher than that, just at lower level. My theory is removing those freqs all together will help tame the sound.
 
You could be on to something in that case... wouldn't be tooo hard to install as mounted to the rear panel and controllable via a switch (like off, half, full kinda thing) like the mono/stereo marshall cabs have. I'd pay $70 more to have that in a normal cab, granted it worked!
 
Just plugged it in. There is a big difference, but I'd like to do some recorded A/B clips before I make a final judgment. Really helps the low end out.
 
Guys this thing is awesome.

Clips in a few minutes, still need to do the response graphs. But the Rose of Sharyn DI's show that this thing does what it is supposed to.

Also, I think if found my favorite Herbert settings doing this:heh:
 
Files are uploading now, so give it a few minutes and I'll edit this post with a link.

Edit- http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2033066/lphpboxtest.zip

The final product I built is a high pass and low pass filter in a box. I ended up going with 3rd order, 18db per octave filters. This simply requires 3 caps, 3 inductors, 2 jacks, a box, and a few wires.

Here is how I tested it.

Chain-
Jeff's Rose of Sharyn DIs-> Redeye-> OD820-> Herbert-> Filter Box(only when noted on the files)->Bogner Uberkab-> V30 -> SM57-> SCA A12-> Firestudio
OD820 was set as clean boost only as I always do, with tone control at the middle position.
Herbert was on channel 2. All tone controls were set at full. Gain was at 9 O'clock. Mid Cut was off. Depth and presence were set at max to fully show what the box could handle. Master volume was half way, very loud with this amp. As it ends up, these settings, although weird, sound great on my Herbert with or without my filter box.
Mic was set back about 7 inches from the cone, at the dust cap/cone meeting point. I had it back this far because I wanted to catch more frequency coming off the speaker. Once again, this actually sounded good.
A12 was set to low setting so the opamp wouldn't color the tone too much.
No post processing, just had to play with levels to get it louder.

Files-
Files are labeled so you know what they are. I did 4 total. 2 with backing track(1 with my filter, 1 without) so you get a full mix idea, and 2 without backing track(1 with my filter, and 1 without).
I think they are like the first minute and a half of the song.

Results-
You be the judge of that. In my opinion, it does exactly what it should do with out having to LP/HP after recording. The sweetest thing about this is that it sounds great in the room. You would have to hear it to fully understand, but I can say this- my cab is very bass heavy/boomy in the room normally. I usually have to cut the bass back a bit and I go very easy on the depth control on the amp. With the box in the chain, the low end tightens up nicely, and I can 'do more' with the tone controls and depth/presence. The piercing high end I usually get with the presence control cranked is gone with the box thrown in. I'd have to say that this filter lets you play around with the amp settings a bit more.

Graphs-
For this test I ran a sweep tone through the amp on the same settings as before. Sweep goes from 20hz-20000hz. I used my room measurement mic, placed center mast on the cab, about 4 feet back, to show the full effect of what the box does to the cab. I then recorded the graphs with and without the filter box and overlayed them using the Blue Cat Analyzer. The darker image is the filter box, the lighter image is without the box. (Sorry, its hard to see whats going on, but that's the best I'm going to get it right now).

Capture-2.jpg


Ah, now we see what is happening to the signal... Doesn't even really look like what a LP/HP should do! But it sounds great!
Between ~150-700hz a lot is going on. Also a slight amount of reduction at ~100hz.
I was surprised to see very little done with the high end filter, since audibly in the room and on the clips, there is a difference. Its hard to see in my pic, but when zoomed in there is a reduction in high end going on from 9khz through 22khz. I guess this proves that a little goes a long way. And obviously Jeff was right, you can see the speakers cut off greatly at 5khz.

Final verdict? I'm going to use this thing from now on. It's not a do all/end all product, but I like it. I may mess around with the low pass filter, and see if dropping the cut point down to 8khz does any better.

Discuss.
 
And I have decided to build them. They won't be anything special, just what you saw before in a plastic box.

I'm not going to put any switches of any kind on it. Reason for this is because switches fail all the time. Even heavy duty ones. Normally this wouldn't matter, but if you have your amp on and a switch on the box fails, you can kiss your output transformer and tubes goodbye. I don't want to be responsible for that.

But otherwise, your more than welcome to order one from me. Just let me know your cab impedance.
 
You know, I'm not sure which one I like more. Without it, it has a lot more beef to it, but also gets a little cloudier in the mix. With the filter box engaged, it's tighter and cleaner, but not as beefy or ballsy.

Would have to test with my own setup to be sure, methinks!
 
You know, I'm not sure which one I like more. Without it, it has a lot more beef to it, but also gets a little cloudier in the mix. With the filter box engaged, it's tighter and cleaner, but not as beefy or ballsy.

Would have to test with my own setup to be sure, methinks!

Exactly.

Remember though, those amp settings were very screwy. I just used them to accentuate the highs and lows(which for some reason didn't really happen, might have been my mic placement. In fact I should do a clip with settings that are normally used. I'll do that tomorrow.
 
There's a pretty big difference. With the filter it sounds a bit more flat but I wouldn't say it's worse than without the filter or vice verse. They are just different. For anything heavy I'd choose the one without the filter but I think the one with the filter would sound awesome for lighter pop/rock stuff.
 
There is a massive difference in the no-backing track versions. But in a mix, the difference doesn't seem that big to me. I prefer the no filter without the backing track. With the backing track, I could take either of them.
 
I preferred without the box, the fuller sound. Couldn't hear a significant difference in the top end (on average "consumer home stereo" speakers), just loss of lows.

It doesn't seem like the LPF is doing what you'd intended. Maybe the rising impedance of the speaker as voice coil inductance becomes significant is throwing your calculations off? If you calculated the filter cutoffs assuming the speaker to be 8ohms at all freq's the reality will be different to predicted.

You could look directly at the impedance of the filters and speaker, to see what's actually happening. The LIMP tool in ARTA allows direct measurement of the impedance curve using headphones output and line input of a soundcard, it's quick and easy. Works in the demo mode, so it's free too. I've found it a useful thing to have.

http://www.fesb.hr/~mateljan/arta/
 
I preferred without the box, the fuller sound. Couldn't hear a significant difference in the top end (on average "consumer home stereo" speakers), just loss of lows.

It doesn't seem like the LPF is doing what you'd intended. Maybe the rising impedance of the speaker as voice coil inductance becomes significant is throwing your calculations off? If you calculated the filter cutoffs assuming the speaker to be 8ohms at all freq's the reality will be different to predicted.

You could look directly at the impedance of the filters and speaker, to see what's actually happening. The LIMP tool in ARTA allows direct measurement of the impedance curve using headphones output and line input of a soundcard, it's quick and easy. Works in the demo mode, so it's free too. I've found it a useful thing to have.

http://www.fesb.hr/~mateljan/arta/

Nah it's doing exactly what it is supposed to do. The problem was I set the roll of point for the LPF at 12000hz... Obviously that was a bit to high, since my speakers aren't doing much anyway after 5K...

I've got some more clips coming. Whenever I get around to the road trip taking my amp all over, I bring the box along so people can hear what it does in the room. It really is quite nice.