Mad Cow / CJD

[Norsemaiden]

Ancient people ate very little meat. It was generally the aristocracy that ever got some. The Roman army marched on a vegetarian diet. Vikings ate very little meat apart from fish. The medieval English mostly ate turnips and nettle stew. Japanese Sumo wrestlers are vegetarian.

 

[speed]

I'm sorry but you're wrong on several accounts. I've researched this for over six years and I can honestly say that:

A) Dogs are omnivores, not carnivores. Cats are carnivores. Dogs eat almost anything they can get their paws on.

B) The protein myth is exactly that----A myth. Come up by the Meat and Dairy Council, which, believe it or not, practically own the Food and Drug Administration in this country. Too much protein, which is extremely common in America, is bad for you. You'd be surprised how little protein we're actually made to consume, and the effects that too much have on our bodies (for women--- think osteoperosis. It doesn't have to do with just calcium.)

C) There is PLENTY, and when I say plenty I mean the proper amount, of iron in green vegetables like broccoli, and spinach, and in legumes and fruit. Which are better for you than meat anyway because they have antioxidants, fiber and more variety of vitamins than meat does to keep your immune system healthy.

D) Your body MAKES IT'S OWN CHOLESTEROL! Hence, that is how we get it!

E) Soybeans are a type of bean/legume. Who the hell says that beans weren't around then? There was definetly beans at whatever time in history you're thinking of.

"there is no one else in the world today that doesnt consume some kind of animal flesh. "

Not true. There are still islands around the world where people never eat meat and rarely sometimes fish and are strong, peaceful and live to be well over 100 years old, because their bodies are kept in such wonderful shape and cancer and heart disease is almost nonexistent because they are not clogging their arteries with cholesteral and their colons with shit.

I agree that meat can be a part of the human diet, however it should be a small part of it, if it even is a part. People who live that way, like many cultures of Native Americans, grow to be incredibly strong and it's a fact that people who eat mainly plant foods have amazing endurance, something that meat eaters, just physically can't have. (And I'm talking about humans. Natural carnivores like tigers have incredible endurance because they are meant to eat meat).

Like I said, I've studied and seen the effects of eating and not eating meat have on the human body. I see it every day. We consume much too much of it.

Oh yeah and one more thing,
"Furthermore, the introduction of meat into a non-meat diet, produces bigger and smarter people and offspring."

Says who?? Albert Einstein was a vegetarian for christ's sake!

Well I will post a longer reply when I get a chance.

First you have proven my point: that yes meat can be a healthy part of ones diet.

Second, obesity, and most other health problems arise from excess sugar not meat; our bodies are designed once again to eat meat, nuts, berries, etc. They were not designed for excessive grain or sugar consumption. Unless said person is loading up on bacon, fried chicken, and steak for every meal, it shouldnt be a problem. Our bodies process fat much better than sugar.

Third, you have admitted, only primtive cultures that are isolated from meat, do not eat it. The rest do.

Fourth, hitler was a vegetarian. Haha. But you brought up famous vegetarians. No, it is rather proven that more meat consumption produces bigger taller people. Example, Any second generation Asian in the US.

Interestingly enough, as a weightlifter for ten years, i have been exposed to very different ideas in regards to protein; and you as a vegan, are surely looking at pro-vegan sites and info.

 

[Susperia]

Okay I'm waiting.

And I only brought up Einstein because you insinuated that meat eating produces smarter people---not true!

In fact, studies have found that plant foods like green vegetables help your brain function better than most things, including meat.

 

[speed]

Okay I'm waiting.

And I only brought up Einstein because you insinuated that meat eating produces smarter people---not true!

In fact, studies have found that plant foods like green vegetables help your brain function better than most things, including meat.

The first thing I should address is the nature of your being a vegetarian. Why? There are only two possible reasons: one you dislike animals being killed for food; two, you think being a vegetarian is far healthier. The second one as I will discuss below, is wrong (from the stricly vegan perspective); the first one, is a ethical/moral choice (however I remind you that all livestock have been bred by humans for a few thousand years solely for the purpose of consumption, and that the Islamic and other primitive religions, honor and bless the livestock about to be killed for food).

Now, if you introduce dairy, eggs, into your diet, with vegatarian fare, yes, you will get the necessary proteins you need--Perhaps the ancient Indians (subcontinental variety) figured this out a few thousand of years ago. I thought all vegans knew this? Every vegan i know has resorted to introducing dairy into their diet out of necessity. But, it is highly unlikely you will be at top athletic perfomance--even endurance runners need complete amino acids.

As for brain performance, I really havent the slightest clue. But, yes from a evolutionary perspective our eating and hunting meat, was quite important in our intellectual development from every anthropological work Ive read. In addition, from history, one must remember that the introduction of a daily amount of meat into the European diet from the middle ages on, led to far bigger and taller people, and it should be no surprise that the plains and eastern Native Americans who ate a diet consisting of a great deal of fresh meat, were far--more than foot taller than their South western, and Central American genetic brethern, who relied more or less on corn etc for their diet. Or take America as an example, asians and Indians getting the full caloric intake back in India or Asia, are not nearly as big as say their sibling raised in meat eating America would be. But, as I have stated before, yes, you can get the necessary proteins from eggs and dairy--and they are actualy better proteins than meat. And let us also remember, the Atkins diet, as well as most ridiculous bodybuilding diets, are based on the idea of eating nothing but protein and fat, as the body will process it easier, and you will lose fat--of course one needs some carbohydrates.

But the big issue here is, if you eat a little organic(if it makes you feel better) meat once a day, or every other day, you will reap nothing but benefits. The best diet in the world is thought to be the Japanese of the Mediterranean diet. Both eat a small portion of meat or fish once a day.


A high protein intake is good for heart disease:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/health/nutrition/stories/daily/aug99/protein0805.htm

High Protein is essential for athletes:
http://www.jssm.org/vol3/n3/2/v3n3-2.htm

Evolutionary past of (thanks FP): http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4122

1
Human development and evolution is something that has fascinated humans since the beginning of our existence. The desire to know and understand from what we came and how it occurred are fundamental in understanding who we are. Despite many differences in how man came to be, the vast majority of people believe that man has evolved, is evolving, and will continue to do so. One of the many factors in human evolution was
the introduction of protein into the diets of humans. Without protein human evolution would have stopped leaving us much like the primates many say we are derived from. Protein, and more importantly animal protein, was necessary for primates to continue evolution, and the tools invented were necessary to obtain and use the protein sources. Animal protein mixed with the diet already existing was ideal to continue progression as a species.​

The Importance of Protein​

Protein is the building block of all muscle in our bodies. Today many people think of this
as the large defined muscles we see in athletes. This is true but there is much more to the story. Protein also helps us develop the other .less noticed muscles. such as our eyes, lungs, brain and other organs. Protein and the right type were absolutely necessary for man kind to continue progression.Many people know that protein can be found in many food sources, many plants including beans contain protein. Vegetarians argue that plant sources contain enough protein. What many people don.t know is that there are complete and incomplete proteins. A complete protein contains all sixteen essential bcaa.s (branched chain amino acids) these sixteen amino acids are the most important and can combine and react in order to create any of the other amino acids. Plant sources of protein are always
incomplete sources of protein. They lack all the essential amino acids. The only way to make them complete is to introduce another food containing the missing amino acids into the meal. Animal protein on the other hand is always complete and always contains all and usually a much higher concentration of the necessary amino acids for the body to grow and develop.

The amino acids in animal protein are much more useful to humans. Scientists havestudied the bodies. ability to make use of the amino acids found in many protein sources.Proteins are rated on a scale of 1 . 100 (the latter being the best) to determine their B.V.
(biological value First, on the list scoring a perfect 100 is egg whites from chickens. The vast majority of all other animal derived protein sources fall in closely. Protein sources from plants then show up on the list behind all animal protein sources. This is due to substances in the legumes that cause them to pass through the digestive system without allowing the protein to be absorbed. The inability of our body to digest the protein makes it completely useless many times.​

 

[Susperia]

The first thing I should address is the nature of your being a vegetarian. Why? There are only two possible reasons: one you dislike animals being killed for food; two, you think being a vegetarian is far healthier. The second one as I will discuss below, is wrong; the first one, is a ethical/moral choice (however I remind you that all livestock have been bred by humans for a few thousand years solely for the purpose of consumption, and that the Islamic and other primitive religions, honor and bless the livestock about to be killed for food).

You're wrong on both accounts. My main reason for being a vegan is for the Earth. It's a fact now that behind automobile emissions, the meat and dairy industries are the second largest cause of pollution to the world's atmosphere. Plus thousands of acres of South American rainforest are burned to the ground every year for the sake of grazing McDonald's cows. The earth is more important than any of us, any animal or human. The health benefits and stopping a (very) small portion of animal cruelty are added bonuses.

Now, if you introduce dairy, eggs, into your diet, with vegatarian fare, yes, you will get the necessary proteins you need--Perhaps the ancient Indians (subcontinental variety) figured this out a few thousand of years ago. I thought all vegans knew this? Every vegan i know has resorted to introducing dairy into their diet out of necessity. But, it is highly unlikely you will be at top athletic perfomance--even endurance runners need complete amino acids.

I've been vegan for six years and have never even heard of this? Nature gives us everything our body needs to be healthy. The only supplement modern vegans need to take is B12, which isn't available anymore solely because it's a bacteria that grows in soil and is now washed off with chemicals and soaps when we wash our food.

...and it should be no surprise that the plains and eastern Native Americans who ate a diet consisting of a great deal of fresh meat, were far--more than foot taller than their South western, and Central American genetic brethern, who relied more or less on corn etc for their diet.

All Native Americans, except those who lived in frozen climates like the Eskimos and Aluet ate mainly vegetable diets. None of them, other than maybe a few tribes that I don't know of, ate "a great deal of fresh meat". The Native's staple foods were 'The Three Sisters'---- corn, beans and squash.

dairy--and they are actualy better proteins than meat.

When, oh when will people understand that we were not made to drink the milk of a cow??! That milk is made by the cow for her calf and henceforth designed for a calf, who needs to double, if not triple its body weight within a few months. A human females breast milk is designed for human babies to drink, no other animal, yes? Why is it we think a cows breast milk is meant for us to drink? It's quite bizarre, and disgusting, and it makes sense that so many people are lactose intolerant sometimes without even realizing it.

Humans are the only species to ever exist on earth to never wean themselves. Every other animal is weaned after a few months/ years of drinking its mothers milk. I think humans need to grow up and wean themselves as well.

A high protein intake is good for heart disease:

HAH! I laugh.

High Protein is essential for athletes:

You are right there.

Can't be bothered to comment on all the rest right now... I should be doing homework.

 

[speed]

You're wrong on both accounts. My main reason for being a vegan is for the Earth. It's a fact now that behind automobile emissions, the meat and dairy industries are the second largest cause of pollution to the world's atmosphere. Plus thousands of acres of South American rainforest are burned to the ground every year for the sake of grazing McDonald's cows. The earth is more important than any of us, any animal or human. The health benefits and stopping a (very) small portion of animal cruelty are added bonuses.



I've been vegan for six years and have never even heard of this? Nature gives us everything our body needs to be healthy. The only supplement modern vegans need to take is B12, which isn't available anymore solely because it's a bacteria that grows in soil and is now washed off with chemicals and soaps when we wash our food.



All Native Americans, except those who lived in frozen climates like the Eskimos and Aluet ate mainly vegetable diets. None of them, other than maybe a few tribes that I don't know of, ate "a great deal of fresh meat". The Native's staple foods were 'The Three Sisters'---- corn, beans and squash.



When, oh when will people understand that we were not made to drink the milk of a cow??! That milk is made by the cow for her calf and henceforth designed for a calf, who needs to double, if not triple its body weight within a few months. A human females breast milk is designed for human babies to drink, no other animal, yes? Why is it we think a cows breast milk is meant for us to drink? It's quite bizarre, and disgusting, and it makes sense that so many people are lactose intolerant sometimes without even realizing it.

Humans are the only species to ever exist on earth to never wean themselves. Every other animal is weaned after a few months/ years of drinking its mothers milk. I think humans need to grow up and wean themselves as well.




HAH! I laugh.




You are right there.

Can't be bothered to comment on all the rest right now... I should be doing homework.

But this is all vegan nonsense. You havent offered one susbtantive point. And why are you laughing? It is obvious you have been brainwashed on this subject, and refuse to listen to another viewpoint.

For point one, its bad for the earth: I hate to break it to you, but farming your grains and soy is just as bad for the earth as ranching. In fact it is more invasive due to the fertizliers and pesticides. You should know this! Come on, they clear cut for grain and vegatable farming, they dump pesticides, and the soil is not meant to grow crops on a long term basis. These pesticides etc, kill animals and harm the earth much more so than cattle farming.

Yes Nature does give us everything we need, including meat and animal products essential for human consumption. You havent heard about complete proteins? I mean there are countless of exercise books out there. There is only one non- animal based perfect 16 branched amino acid in the world, and it is a cereal grown in the Andes. However, if you say include cereal with milk, pasta with cheese, etc, you have a complete protein. But a grain or a bean on its own, is not a complete protein. All the vegans I knew, who were tired of growing fat and lethargic, either resorted to supplements, or eggs or dairy.

Look, Ive read a great deal about Native Americans, and history writers always make a point to detail how much healthier, bigger and stronger the Eastern Native Americans were compared to the first European counterparts. Why? because they not only farmed, but they had a large diet of meat and fish--which they honored when they killed, and did not kill more than they could use. The plains and Eastern indians did quite a bit of hunting: quite a bit. The farming society in the east collapsed, but even then, they included game and fish into their diets. Those indians that you are discussing were the Southwestern and Central American variety that were not very big, and did not each much meat. In fact the reason the navaho and many mexicans retain so much fat is because they had such meager--feast or famie diets, they needed as much fat as possible to survive.

But what is your point on milk? Those cows were bred for milk, otherwise they wouldnt be alive. If the milk is extracted humanely, what is the problem? It is a complete protein you need. Whey protein, made from milk is perfect.

I dont know, we are humans. We cant just revert back to eating roots, not harming our environment, and acting one with nature.

 

[Susperia]

I hate to break it to you, but farming your grains and soy is just as bad for the earth as ranching. In fact it is more invasive due to the fertizliers and pesticides. You should know this! Come on, they clear cut for grain and vegatable farming, they dump pesticides, and the soil is not meant to grow crops on a long term basis. These pesticides etc, kill animals and harm the earth much more so than cattle farming.

Aaarghh! You dont know anything, it's so frustrating! I should be used to it, because most people don't, but it's still so annoying. Pesticides are only a small part of what is being done to the earth by slaughterhouses, etc. And ranching?? Who the FUCK ranches anymore? It's basically all factory farms now hon.

I'll respond more when I'm not doing homework.

 

[speed]

Aaarghh! You dont know anything, it's so frustrating! I should be used to it, because most people don't, but it's still so annoying. Pesticides are only a small part of what is being done to the earth by slaughterhouses, etc. And ranching?? Who the FUCK ranches anymore? It's basically all factory farms now hon.

I'll respond more when I'm not doing homework.

No, you are being unreasonable, for no reason. I have no problem with you, nor do I think this should anything more than a civil argument.

Of course they hold these animals in cages, or turn Costa Rican rainforests into ranches, but, there isnt really any difference between this and turning the same land into corn farming in terms of the environment--and that was your original point was it not? Unless you eat only organic food, your vegatables, and grains, are being grown with pesticides and chemicals that are awful for the environment. As a vegan environmentalist you should know this.

So, let us say that the ranch is organic, and humane. What is the problem with this? The problem is obviously a ethical one for you. Otherwise your argument doesnt hold, as all commercial farming is damaging to the environment--not just ranching, and livestock raising.

 

[VikingSF]

You've got the upper hand here, Speed! I understand where Susperia is coming from, as I experimented with veganism as a teenager, but the vegan philosophy really is based more on sentiment than reason when one examines it closely. The problems with factory farming and the problems with modern agricultural tecniques are serious issues that should be addressed, but being vegan is not really an effective response.

 

[Susperia]

is not really an effective response.

You got a better idea? Boycotting something you're opposed to is the most effective response.

If you're the type to go picket outside corporate offices, by all means do so. I don't like to oppose my beliefs on anyone else, unless they are being threatened or patronized...

I don't usually tell people I am vegan until they get to know me, otherwise they make assumptions about me that aren't true. Some people get so offended when they hear I'm vegan because all their insecurities rise to the surface and they feel like I'm trying to be better than them. People always think it's about them. It's not. It's about the "big picture" here people.

I'll write more later--- too much homework still. And I've heard everythign you guys are saying so many times in my life already. I'm just frustrated because repeating myself is never fun, you know?

 

[VikingSF]

Don't take it too hard, Susperia. I've got nothing against vegans - like I said, I was one once. There's room enough in this world for all kinds of diets. Just stay healthy!

 

[speed]

You got a better idea? Boycotting something you're opposed to is the most effective response.

If you're the type to go picket outside corporate offices, by all means do so. I don't like to oppose my beliefs on anyone else, unless they are being threatened or patronized...

I don't usually tell people I am vegan until they get to know me, otherwise they make assumptions about me that aren't true. Some people get so offended when they hear I'm vegan because all their insecurities rise to the surface and they feel like I'm trying to be better than them. People always think it's about them. It's not. It's about the "big picture" here people.

I'll write more later--- too much homework still. And I've heard everythign you guys are saying so many times in my life already. I'm just frustrated because repeating myself is never fun, you know?

The problem, is that there is such a small share of vegans, that their not eating meat does not force the industry to change. And this is true of most boycotts--thats why most, unless they hit a critical mass or a tipping point, do absolutely nothing.

A different problem occurs with all organic foods. I know a bit about the subject, as I was forced to do a economic study of the Cincinnati regions agricultural sector three years ago. The organic food market is very profitable, and there are enough people eating organic for the big companies to take notice. Therefore, every major produce company has their own organic food line that they run seperately, and at great profit. The cost of growing organic food is much much higher, and having a ravenous but stable market keeps prices high. Anyway, the point is, besides local hippies and other small producers that cannot get onto the supply distribution chain of any major grocery or big box store, 95% of the organic food is grown by the very same companies that produce and distribute the pesticide laden vegetables--that are (some 1 week) two weeks old by the time they reach the grocery store.

Now I dont know about the cattle industry, but I suspect it is similar. Anyway, like four companies, ConAgra, and three other I'd have to look in my old papers to remember, control like 90% of the agricultural market; and this structure was actually put in place by the United States government after WWII. Did you know all the fertizliers being used to grow crops, can easily be converted into weapons grade materials? Also, the genetic engineering of all this food is done in conjunction with the companies, the government, and our agriculutral colleges--like Ohio State, Illinois, Texas Aand M, etc. And I dont need to tell you that the only thing being grown from the East--apart from FLorida and Georgia, on through to California, is wheat, soybeans, and corn. Its the only thing the farmers can sell to these huge companies (they cannot get on Grocery stores Distribution chain, unless they are very large); and one needs a very large farm to make a profit. This also was sponsered by the American gov; thus the preponderance of corn syrup.

So to sum up: we have discovered that eating meat is not bad for you--especially if done like every other food, in moderation; that one needs complete proteins that are only found in animal products; that grain/vegetable farming is as bad, if not worse for the environment as cattle ranching/livestock/poultry raising; and finally, not eating meat is a ethical choice that has no basis in history or any culture but the Hindu, and the vegan diet has no basis in any culture, and is not as healthy as including fish and dairy into ones diet. In fact, most vegans are told to visit their doctor and a nutritionist, as such a diet is unnatural for humans.

Finally, I'd like to add that veganism seems to be practiced by liberals and persons out to make the earth a better place; they also seem to detest the suffering of animals; they also are under the impression the vegan diet is good for their health. But, its highly doubtful ones protest will change the meat industry; one will not be blessed with a healthier diet; and veganism is a misguided and ineffectual attempt to improve the environment, that is only practiced by rich, first world types.

 

[VikingSF]

Finally, I'd like to add that veganism seems to be practiced by liberals and persons out to make the earth a better place; they also seem to detest the suffering of animals; they also are under the impression the vegan diet is good for their health. But, its highly doubtful ones protest will change the meat industry; one will not be blessed with a healthier diet; and veganism is a misguided and ineffectual attempt to improve the environment, that is only practiced by rich, first world types.

You're hitting on all cylinders today, Speed. Cheers!

 

[Susperia]

Of course they hold these animals in cages, or turn Costa Rican rainforests into ranches, but, there isnt really any difference between this and turning the same land into corn farming in terms of the environment--and that was your original point was it not? Unless you eat only organic food, your vegatables, and grains, are being grown with pesticides and chemicals that are awful for the environment. As a vegan environmentalist you should know this.

It's the lesser of two evils. Pesticides/herbicides are still very dangerous, yes, but they are less dangerous than the hormones, chemicals, antiobiotics and everything else they pump into the animals we eat today. Why don't you look up on that and then we'll talk. I wish I didn't have to harm the earth at all by living, but in today's world, it's not an option... And yes, I know all of this, don't patronize me. Like I said, I just chose the lesser of two evils.

 

[Susperia]

The problem, is that there is such a small share of vegans, that their not eating meat does not force the industry to change. And this is true of most boycotts--thats why most, unless they hit a critical mass or a tipping point, do absolutely nothing.

There are more and more people giving up meat, or eating less of it everyday. When I became a vegan, most people did not know what it was or had ever heard the term. Since the 80's it's amazing how many people are becoming aware of these things... though I know not enough people are doing anything about it. That doesn't mean I can just go on with my life thinking "oh well, I won't see a difference in my lifetime so I shouldn't bother", how would I live with myself?

A different problem occurs with all organic foods. I know a bit about the subject, as I was forced to do a economic study of the Cincinnati regions agricultural sector three years ago. The organic food market is very profitable, and there are enough people eating organic for the big companies to take notice. Therefore, every major produce company has their own organic food line that they run seperately, and at great profit. The cost of growing organic food is much much higher, and having a ravenous but stable market keeps prices high. Anyway, the point is, besides local hippies and other small producers that cannot get onto the supply distribution chain of any major grocery or big box store, 95% of the organic food is grown by the very same companies that produce and distribute the pesticide laden vegetables--that are (some 1 week) two weeks old by the time they reach the grocery store.

At least they're trying.. I dont' know, I've never heard that before, but it makes sense that companies are tyring to give up farming with pesticides.

Did you know all the fertizliers being used to grow crops, can easily be converted into weapons grade materials? Also, the genetic engineering of all this food is done in conjunction with the companies, the government, and our agriculutral colleges--like Ohio State, Illinois, Texas Aand M, etc. And I dont need to tell you that the only thing being grown from the East--apart from FLorida and Georgia, on through to California, is wheat, soybeans, and corn. Its the only thing the farmers can sell to these huge companies (they cannot get on Grocery stores Distribution chain, unless they are very large); and one needs a very large farm to make a profit. This also was sponsered by the American gov; thus the preponderance of corn syrup.

I know ALLLLLLL about GMO's, you don't have to explain it. And I know how dangerous pesticides are (remember agent orange?). Does this mean we shouldn't eat food anymore speed? We should just take little pills or live solely off meat? No, don't be silly. You know all these bad things about the agricultural part of this country, I suggest you take a further look into the way in which we take care of our livestock. And I don't just mean how we treat them.

that one needs complete proteins that are only found in animal products; that grain/vegetable farming is as bad, if not worse for the environment as cattle ranching/livestock/poultry raising; and finally, not eating meat is a ethical choice that has no basis in history or any culture but the Hindu, and the vegan diet has no basis in any culture, and is not as healthy as including fish and dairy into ones diet. In fact, most vegans are told to visit their doctor and a nutritionist, as such a diet is unnatural for humans.

Believe it or not, everything you said in that sentence is either untrue, or extremely exxagerated. There are complete proteins in plant foods, factory farms cause AS MUCH harm as agricultural farming if not more, and there have been vegans throughout the centuries because it is natural for the human body, it's what we were designed for. Dairy is not a human food, it is a baby calf's food. And if you believe everything your doctor tells you, you're an unfortunate person.

Doctor's are not nutritionists, in fact, most nutritionists shouldn't be nutritionists. Doctor's take one semester on nutrition in their decade of schooling, some don't even get A's. Doctor's make money off fixing you after you've gotten ill, not on what you're body needs as fuel.

I don't understand where your information on how plant foods are not sufficient for a human being? Does it make you feel better to thing you're at the very top of the food chain? You know what, it probably does.

 

[LORD_RED_DRAGON]

i agree with Susperia...
except...
that EVERY vegan i've EVER met ended up either getting nutrient deficiency sickness from a lack of the nutrients that are in meat or getting sick from pesticides/plant steroids

 

[Susperia]

i agree with Susperia...
except...
that EVERY vegan i've EVER met ended up either getting nutrient deficiency sickness from a lack of the nutrients that are in meat or getting sick from pesticides/plant steroids

A lot of that 'nutrient deficiency' is in their heads. People tell us all the time how we can't be healthy... the placebo effect. Sometimes I feel that way, then I go to my nutritionist or doctor and they tell me I'm very healthy. *shrugs*.

How do you get sick from pesticides?? And why would it be only vegans? Everyone eats plants. Makes no sense.

 

[LORD_RED_DRAGON]

A lot of that 'nutrient deficiency' is in their heads. People tell us all the time how we can't be healthy... the placebo effect. Sometimes I feel that way, then I go to my nutritionist or doctor and they tell me I'm very healthy. *shrugs*.

How do you get sick from pesticides?? And why would it be only vegans? Everyone eats plants. Makes no sense.

every vegan i know ends up getting sick to point of going to the ER with the doctors either telling them they've been poisoned by pesticedes or the docters telling them to start eating meat

 

[speed]

It's the lesser of two evils. Pesticides/herbicides are still very dangerous, yes, but they are less dangerous than the hormones, chemicals, antiobiotics and everything else they pump into the animals we eat today. Why don't you look up on that and then we'll talk. I wish I didn't have to harm the earth at all by living, but in today's world, it's not an option... And yes, I know all of this, don't patronize me. Like I said, I just chose the lesser of two evils.

You have proven nothing in any of your posts but your zealous adherence to your own ideas: "Doctors and nutritionists know nothing?" "Nutrient Deficiency is in their heads" Susperia, by making such statements, you further degrade your argument. Are we to believe a hippie vegan or you, over doctors and nutritionists? I dont think the doctors and nutritionists buy into a global meat-eating conspiracy. They may tell you to eat more fish over meat however.

Yes, you have realized my point. No farming, and I mean any non organic farming be it grains or meat is good for the environment. And eating such foods, be they beef or vegeatble is also bad for you. There is no lesser of the two evils here. They are both bad for the environment, and both will continue. I dont understand why you are defending herbicides and pesticides? They cause cancer! THey also harm animals. My argument is in favor of organic foods, yours is getting ridiculous here. I mean, you are essentially admitting yours has serious problems, but for reasons you cannot explain, other than you own personal opinion, by remaining vegan, you are still saving the world even if your path is only slightly better--in your opinion of course.

My info on protein can be found in any nutrition or exercise book. There are 16 amino acids the body needs, and foods are rated on a 100 point scale. Whey protein and egg whites rate highest with 100%, then in order: milk, meat, nuts, beans, grains, vegetable forms. By the time you hit nuts and beans, these foods do not have the full amount of proteins. This is totally factual. I am not making it up; however, I suspect everything you have stated has been made up!

Its a shame you havent seen my point, but I will state it one more time: being a vegan, and not eating meat/dairy, is a ethical choice, nothing more. Why is this so hard to admit?

 

[Susperia]

It's a shame you haven't seen my point, speed.

Environmentally, it's still worse to farm animals due to the massive amounts of waste products they produce (shit, carcasses, bi-product, etc.) All pollute the environment since the excess amount in every category usually gets absorbed into soil (rendering it useless for crops) and polluting the clean water supply. Also, animals eat more than humans do, so to keep them fed requires not only the grain normally farmed for humans, but the much, much more used for animals, (they say we could feed a third world country for a year just on what we feed our livestock every year) so any detrimental effects caused by grain harvesting is much worse with animal farming (including pesticide use, because the millions of livestock live off it, too). Can you see now why ingesting only plant foods requires less use of pesticides? Especially for someone who tries to eat mainly organic.

This, then, leads into the whole 'pesticide poisoning', which I'm not sure is even true. Pesticides are bad for your body, yes. However, they will not physically 'poison' you, unless you ingest vast amounts of it (the residue on vegetables is not enough). Anyway--- because animals like cows eat so much more than humans, and eat so much of our crops (which are covered in pesticide residue, remember), when we then eat that cow, we are ingesting every food they ever ate in their lives, therefore ingesting far more pesticides than by eating a few vegetables every day. It's a fact that our beef today is so condensed with pesiticides and hormones, it should not even be allowed for consumption. Do you understand? It's much more concentrated amounts of pesticides within animal flesh than in plants.

Health wise, people are idiots. When they go vegan, they think they can live off potatoes and pasta, which are nutritionally devoid. If you look at the people who know what the hell they were doing, they are healthy. For example, I think most of us know who Joaquin Phoenix is, as well as Woody Harelson, Fiona Apple, Mariel Hemmingway, Alicia Silverstone, Moby, Earth Crisis (the band). All those people are vegan, and have been for some time.

Every amino acid and every necessary nutrient can be found in vegan foods since so many are reinforced with them, and vitamin pills can augment those who don't eat perfectly (One multi-vitamin a day is
recommended for everyone, not just vegans). However, you do need to be consious of what you eat, everyone does, not just vegans. (Though if you live on a college campus and are vegan like me, you should be very consious.)

EDIT: And about boycotting--- The meat industries profit margins are low. Really, really low. They
sell every single bi-product of the animal they can just to make it in the black, and boycotting is effective. As proof, when Oprah said she wouldn't eat beef again, the market for it went down so much that they sued to make her retract the statement.