Magic in a fantasy RPG

[Jim LotFP]

'allo...

I think two key concepts concerning the presence and use of magic can make any fantasy RPG better:

Keep the supernatural mysterious and frightening for the player as well as the character.

Fantasy games are terrible at making the supernatural something special. Every adventure has some magical component, characters can always count on finding some sort of magical treasure, every town has a church with spellcasting priests, and some games go as far as to have magic shops. Magic becomes just another technology, another commodity to be bought and sold. Some people like it that way, and that's fine.

Doesn't that take away the sense of wonder and danger that honest-to-goodness magic should give to characters?

And to get the characters to believe something, shouldn't it also be making the players feel that way as well?

The only real answer is greatly reducing magic appearing in the game world. Obviously trends are against that happening, and one has to ask why?

Is it laziness on the part of game designers and DMs that has avoided making 'mundane' and plausible adventures and rewards interesting and fulfilling for players?

Proliferation of magic isn't just a stylistic choice in a game, it has serious game consequences. Adventures and characters quickly get caught up in an arms race. Each magical menace or situation has to be a little bit more powerful, or a little bit more unusual, in order to seem like a progression from the last one. From there, players tend to think of a progression of a campaign based on the goodies and numbers on their character sheets. Once magic is a common thing to deal with, the game world becomes more unbelievable, and therefore more difficult for players to invest intellectually or emotionally in. A world with common magic simply won't resemble medieval Earth, period. It doesn't matter whether a medieval peasant believed there was magic or not... fact was they never really saw it, they were terrified of seeing it, and if they thought there was magic afoot, they burned it. Entire cultures would change and disappear if you added commonplace magic into a world. I think you're really running a non-technological sci-fi RPG if you have too much magic everywhere. Keeping magic rare and definitely out of everyday life allows for far more realism to base your game off of, which means less assumptions and guessing about the world itself and more concentration on playing the actual game and embarking on adventure.

Just because a player knows everything about the rules, it doesn't mean they should be able to master the magic rules.

In most games, rules for using magic are very clear cut. Players scope out the rulebook, know what to do and not what to do, and magic is just another tool in the box to play with. No sense of danger from the magician in using otherworldly forces, no worries from anyone else in the adventuring party that these forces could get out of control while they're around. If the players aren't taking the mysticism seriously, it's damned hard for them to make their characters do so.

The obvious answer is to make magic in the game unstable.

How does one make a more unpredictable magic system with rules that allow structure in play, but make sure nobody actually really masters magic within the game itself? Is this even a desirable goal?

I've got my ideas on the subject and that's how I'm proceeding with the magic rules for LotFP: RPG, but I'm interested in your take on things...

 

[numbskull]

I agree with everything that you wrote... but so many people are "roll" players, stat crunchers and god/mage-tank wannabes that a game with minimal magic will be a tough sell.

However, it would also be a better game.

I've always felt this way about RPGs. Another thing that's often messed up in many RPGs is the economy... way too much gold out there in monsterland.

But in the era of computer games like Diablo, a limited magic system will be tough.

>> How does one make a more unpredictable magic system with rules that allow structure in play, but make sure nobody actually really masters magic within the game itself? Is this even a desirable goal?

Sounds fun to me. Especially the unstable bit - that really adds an edge... although I can see many pouty faces at the card tables out there. I know if a magic missile went off in the face of my first level mage-tank wannabe and killed him, I'd be all pouty.

 

[Jim LotFP]

I agree with everything that you wrote... but so many people are "roll" players, stat crunchers and god/mage-tank wannabes that a game with minimal magic will be a tough sell.

That shouldn't be a problem with the core rules because how much magic is an individual GM's issue, but the campaign setting to follow might take it on the chin.

I've always felt this way about RPGs. Another thing that's often messed up in many RPGs is the economy... way too much gold out there in monsterland.

The game setting will include rules for various currencies and 'windfall' taxation that should make many players frowny and many characters outlaws. Staying in the outlands and wild areas, no problem, but coming into the heart of a civilized empire with cartloads of coin? HAH!

But in the era of computer games like Diablo, a limited magic system will be tough.

Creating in a bubble: I don't even know what Diablo is.

Sounds fun to me. Especially the unstable bit - that really adds an edge... although I can see many pouty faces at the card tables out there. I know if a magic missile went off in the face of my first level mage-tank wannabe and killed him, I'd be all pouty.

eh, if you play it safe with the magic, you'll stay safe. But what fun is it to stay safe when for just a little more risk, you get all that power...

 

[The King In Yellow]

I agree with you thoroughly.
I would like to point out that in the new Conan RPG [which I may lend to you if you like], they have treated magic in a way that I think would meet your approval.
In the game, sorcerers are people who start out as scholars, researching the metaphysics of what they want to know through study of sorcerers previously extant, dangerous personal experimentation, and often by making pacts with otherworldly entities to discover these secrets.
This gives these sorcerers the ability to cast spells that would make 20th level D&D mages gape at, along the lines of "I will resurrect the 2000 year old dead empire of Acheron with its purple towers!"
However, doing such a spell would leave the sorcerer drained of energy for weeks if not years, require week long rituals, and the acquisition of components that are rare and would require an adventure/campaign in and of itself.
While the sorcerer can, by self-study, do basic "parlor tricks" [ie, D&D cantrips and maybe some 1st level spells], to do more requires one of those study methods above. And probably, a full casting room and lab equipment.
Over time, the insatiable desire by the sorcerer for knowledge, knowledge, and even MORE knowledge will lead the sorcerer down a dire path. For example, "Yes, I should be able to transmute this worthless lead to gold.....but the book says I will need the bones of a mother strangled by her virginal daughter and eaten by her aged grandmother. Drat. Glad I learned how to mezmerise...."
Or: "Of course, my Duke, I can keep the King from gaining power over you and destroying your schemes.....but I will need 25 virgins to slake the lust of the archfiend Damuzzelabra that I serve. And the heart of your firstborn son. Yes, my lord, the price is steep....but how far are you willing to go to avoid ruin?"
This is a very old-fashioned "pulp" view of magic, but it's generally how I would play it [White Wolf's <i>Mage: The Ascension</i> aside] and view it. I think the view more fits your magic viewpoint than aught else in gaming today.

 

[Jim LotFP]

In the game, sorcerers are people who start out as scholars, researching the metaphysics of what they want to know through study of sorcerers previously extant, dangerous personal experimentation, and often by making pacts with otherworldly entities to discover these secrets.

For purposes of playability, mages in my game have more physical possibilities... I like the possibility of warrior mages... they just won't be THAT powerful... the really insane powerful mages would be the ones that are 300 years old, have a beard 15 feet long, and haven't been out of their laboratory in 150 years... those are the dangerous ones.

This gives these sorcerers the ability to cast spells that would make 20th level D&D mages gape at, along the lines of "I will resurrect the 2000 year old dead empire of Acheron with its purple towers!"

Those must be some interesting rules.

However, doing such a spell would leave the sorcerer drained of energy for weeks if not years, require week long rituals, and the acquisition of components that are rare and would require an adventure/campaign in and of itself.

My system, long rituals and components are not necessary, but without them spells need much more power from the mage himself... which will likely only be an issue for low-to-mid level spells as beginning mages advance and eventually don't need the 'crutches'. Really powerful spells, I can't imagine a character that wouldn't need all the bells and whistles and even then would be sweating the outcome.

Over time, the insatiable desire by the sorcerer for knowledge, knowledge, and even MORE knowledge will lead the sorcerer down a dire path. For example, "Yes, I should be able to transmute this worthless lead to gold.....but the book says I will need the bones of a mother strangled by her virginal daughter and eaten by her aged grandmother. Drat. Glad I learned how to mezmerise...."

In my game, comparable components would only be necessary for life-force/black magic... dunno what a metal transmutation spell will use as components yet, but it wouldn't be that kind of stuff.

I wonder if I'd sell a single copy if the rules stated that healing spells deal with life force and not physical mending and are therefore subject to black magic conditions and risks? eh. I know resurrection spells will be black magic, because bringing the dead back to life would require aid from 'higher powers', and even benevolent powers hate forced summons, which is what such magic is... mwahahah.

This is a very old-fashioned "pulp" view of magic, but it's generally how I would play it [White Wolf's <i>Mage: The Ascension</i> aside] and view it. I think the view more fits your magic viewpoint than aught else in gaming today.

I'm very familiar with Conan, both RE Howard's version and the better Marvel writers who did the Savage Sword magazine... I like that magic is always mysterious and not to be trusted, but I don't like the fact that there seems to be a 100% insanity rate for magic users. I think I've got a good balance... someone smart can use magic safely if they stay within their means... there's just lots to be gained for not staying within your power level, and that's where you get in trouble.

 

[Carbonized]

Magic use/items can be over used yes but ultimately the GM has control over the amount of magic to include in the modules. If a GM gratuitously hands out magic items left and right, that's just wrong and takes all the fun out of the game. But at the same time if the GM feels forced to have to include such measures to keep the interest of a gaming group alive then the GM should find another group to run. There's just no sense in trying to cater to spoiled people like that. If they aren't god in the game then they aren't happy, leave 'em. A good GM should know how to implement a system of balance regardless of the rule sets involved. One idea i had which could tie into yours Jim, possibly, in terms of making magic more dangerous or whatever. Implement a system where the player has to actually use a hand motion(s) to also activate the spell (if you've ever played Arx Fatalis on PC or XBox then you would have an idea of what i mean. Anyway if you choose to go this route , have illustrations to show what gestures are required for a given spell. If they fuck up the gesture (not done properly or done out of order) then there would lie the danger of using magic. You decide what happens based on the degree of the mess up such as, nothing happens to backfire to a completely random effect to a random target. I could imagine using such a system and see the magic users in the party sitting around the table making all these hand symbols in order to fire off the goods. also i think it would help to bring the person more into the world and into the shoes of their character. Spell combos would be a neat thing too :Spin:

 

[Jim LotFP]

Implement a system where the player has to actually use a hand motion(s) to also activate the spell

I don't like this idea... players shouldn't have to know how their characters cast spells any more than players should have to know anything about swordcraft to play a warrior.

Spell combos would be a neat thing too :Spin:

Included in the game.

 

[Carbonized]

yea but i still like the idea and yes i know if would leave the warriors at an advantage without requiring anything. But magic use, as you said, should require some sense of danger. Regardless of the outcome i hope this project is successful for you.

 

[The King In Yellow]

For purposes of playability, mages in my game have more physical possibilities... I like the possibility of warrior mages... they just won't be THAT powerful... the really insane powerful mages would be the ones that are 300 years old, have a beard 15 feet long, and haven't been out of their laboratory in 150 years... those are the dangerous ones..

That makes perfect sense and is the best way to make mages.

Those must be some interesting rules.

They are. Yes, you can resurrect long dead empires, if you have enough power and get all the goodies together. Again, do not expect to be wielding any more magic for a year or two.

I rather prefer that......more powerful spells in exchange for more problems/sacrifices involved in casting them.

My system, long rituals and components are not necessary, but without them spells need much more power from the mage himself... which will likely only be an issue for low-to-mid level spells as beginning mages advance and eventually don't need the 'crutches'. Really powerful spells, I can't imagine a character that wouldn't need all the bells and whistles and even then would be sweating the outcome.=

Da, comrade.

In my game, comparable components would only be necessary for life-force/black magic... dunno what a metal transmutation spell will use as components yet, but it wouldn't be that kind of stuff.

I'd go with a minute amount of the metal you wish to transmute the base into, in order to facilitate the alchemical transference from one to the other. You want to make lead into gold? Fine, have a gram of gold available and be prepared to lose 50% of the lead in the transmutation. The more valuable the metal, the less you get when you transmute.

I wonder if I'd sell a single copy if the rules stated that healing spells deal with life force and not physical mending and are therefore subject to black magic conditions and risks? eh. I know resurrection spells will be black magic, because bringing the dead back to life would require aid from 'higher powers', and even benevolent powers hate forced summons, which is what such magic is... mwahahah.

I'd agree with that. It makes healing a dangerous proposition and used only in life-threatening situations - the dispensation of high-level priests in the service of a god. Low-level priests really shouldn't be combat medics anyway.

I'm very familiar with Conan, both RE Howard's version and the better Marvel writers who did the Savage Sword magazine... I like that magic is always mysterious and not to be trusted, but I don't like the fact that there seems to be a 100% insanity rate for magic users. I think I've got a good balance... someone smart can use magic safely if they stay within their means... there's just lots to be gained for not staying within your power level, and that's where you get in trouble.

I think that's a good idea. The 100% insanity rate is a problem in pulp fiction. I would amend it to say that if you want magical power the quick and dirty way, you have to traffic with Things Man Is Not Meant To Know - and the problems resulting from that. On the other hand, should you wish to just tread the "normal" magician path, there's no need to deal with such for quick power. It's just slower than the Pact Path.

 

[Jim LotFP]

I'd agree with that. It makes healing a dangerous proposition and used only in life-threatening situations - the dispensation of high-level priests in the service of a god. Low-level priests really shouldn't be combat medics anyway.

The rules aren't going to specify any relationship between religion and magic (demons will be specified as coming from 'another dimension', if they are real hellfire Satan demons or just aliens, that's up to the individual GM)... and my game world will have the Church and magic be pretty exclusive in most areas...

And healing spells for physical injuries isn't going to be THAT big a deal, no messing with 'higher powers' on that.