manually compensating for recording latency

[Fragle]

i've noticed that when recording stuff, my playing tends to have that slightly-ahead-of-beat feel most of the time. for a long time i thought that it's just my playing, that i'm always slightly rushing things instead of implementing a laid back feel on some parts.
i've really worked my ass off trying to become the tightest rhythm player possible, and still do. i'm not a sloppy guitar player by any means, my tracks are pretty tight, except for that ahead of beat feel that i can't seem to get rid of even though i'm really focusing on accentuating stuff right on snare/kick hits etc.

now, it occured to me that maybe it's the automatic latency correction that's fucking with my tracks. i'm using an RME fireface with the buffer set to 64 samples, and reaper is reporting me 3,4ms input latency. not really enough to notice, you might think. well, the way i understand it is that reaper automatically shifts the recorded tracks forward in time by the amount of ms reported by the asio driver, in my case around 3-4ms.
just for shits and giggles i tried to slide back all my tracks just a couple of ms, and bam, goodbye ahead of beat feel.
so, the way i see it there should be two workarounds:
- record as usual, manually slide back the tracks when finished
- disable the automatic input latency correction (BAD if you're reamping with a higher buffer size due to the mix being more complicated at that part, reamps will be behind the beat)

any of you experiencing a similar thing?
it's not really noticable unless you REALLY listen for it, or try to purposely record something behind the beat and start wondering why it doesn't have that feel when playing back the recorded take.

i also wonder if there's a way to use the rme total mix routing matrix to achieve similar results?

just share your experience

 

[Mikaël-ange]

I haven't any solution (and I'm open minded to any idea for solve this major dual amping problem I get in cubase) for this but I see this all the time (lot of ADC daw based).
You can find some interesting read about it here.

 

[aortizjr]

I have noticed similar issues. Where on playback things will suddenly seem "out of the pocket." Especially with my own playing... I just thought I was going crazy.

I would be interested to learn more.

 

[ahjteam]

I have the opposite problem; I'm always slightly behind the beat.

 

[Fragle]

that's interesting, how do you do that? i mean, even if i purposely try to play behind the beat i end up spot on or slightly ahead of the beat due to the latency thing, since everything get's shifted forward.

the whole thing really got me thinking....after all latencys of like 3-5ms are often said to be negligible, yet the feel get's changed pretty drastically IMHO.
doesn't matter most of the time, when recording bands that struggle with being IN TIME at all hehe. but once you record a decent guitar player who's not only tight but also knows how to push and pull rhythmically you're pretty fucked it seems.

any workaround WHILE tracking??? the only thing i can think of is to shut off the automatic latency compensation - and don't forget to turn it back on later hehe.

 

[jangoux]

man, i had this client that EVERYTHING was ahead of the beat and we were scratching our heads to the bone looking for a solution. Now this makes a lot of sense.

 

[metalfanat1c]

Interesting. I always had the same problem. I thought it was my guitar playing...

 

[[UEAK]Clowd]

are you sure about this? I'm pretty sure if stuff is lined up on the grid, it's lined up on the grid... it would be pretty counterproductive if the ADC was making the grid lie to you? I was always under the impression that it took care of plugin latency and etc.

 

[aortizjr]

Well I guess also how are you tracking?

Are you tracking through the computer sort of speak? So you have some playing latency.

Or are you going "Zero-latency" through the interface?

Just curious if there is a difference there.

I almost always use the zero-latency.

 

[jangoux]

zero latency or through daw = same problem to me. Rme user here.

 

[AudioGeekZine]

do a loopback test.
Track 1 - test tone output interface 3
Track 2 - Record enable input 3
Cable from output 3 to input 3.
record. Compare the waveforms.

My Profire 2626 was a few samples off. Reaper can adjust for this in the Audio>Recording preferences.

I always record with software monitoring.

 

[jangoux]

One more thing: At least to me, in Cubendo, on some projects this is worse, and on others, it's a very light thing. dunno why.

 

[Fragle]

do a loopback test.
Track 1 - test tone output interface 3
Track 2 - Record enable input 3
Cable from output 3 to input 3.
record. Compare the waveforms.

My Profire 2626 was a few samples off. Reaper can adjust for this in the Audio>Recording preferences.

I always record with software monitoring.

this isn't going to show what i'm talking about.
i can already tell you that during the loopback the signal will be slightly off, it's either just phasing (64samples buffer) or way out of whack (1024samples "mix" buffer), but it'll be spot on once the recording is finished as reaper is automatically compensating for the reported latency AFTER the recording is done.

now, when recording guitar, you're adjusting your playing to what you HEAR. basically, you hit a note, it'll pass through the guitar, DI, AD, into your DAW, where it get's processed with an amp sim, and that signal get's passed through the DA into your monitors and finally your ears.

the DA latency part does not matter here, as it's the SAME for both the backing track and what you're monitoring.
the INPUT latency however is only relevant to the recorded track. now, if you have an input latency of let's say 5ms, you'll hear the picked note 5ms later than you actually expect it to be. you can't hear it, but you'll feel it, and your brain will compensate for that and will make you play slightly ahead of the beat, 5ms to be precise, so that everything is spot on while you're recording.
once you're finished recording, reaper shifts the recorded track 5ms forward, to compensate for the reported latency. for that reason, you're ahead of beat feel which was only done to subconsciously compensate for the input latency turns into a REAL ahead of beat thing.

that's my working theory right now.
i just need to figure out how the plugin latency produced by the amp sim (be it pod farm or whatever) fits into the whole thing. i guess it has something to do with the way automatic delay compensation works. i'm not sure, either the processed track get's shifted forward, or everything else backwards. so, in playback, everything's phase coherent (more or less...). but is it also active when recording?

 

[Fragle]

are you sure about this? I'm pretty sure if stuff is lined up on the grid, it's lined up on the grid... it would be pretty counterproductive if the ADC was making the grid lie to you? I was always under the impression that it took care of plugin latency and etc.

ok, besides the fact that i'm sure nobody will ever watch the grid while recording guitar tracks (at least not while playing), once you're finished recording you'll see it's slightly ahead of the grid, just like the way it sounds. the grid is NOT lying to you.
rather, if you slide back the audio a few ms, it'll be SPOT ON the grid. assuming the playing was tight enough hehe.

 

[[UEAK]Clowd]

ok, besides the fact that i'm sure nobody will ever watch the grid while recording guitar tracks (at least not while playing), once you're finished recording you'll see it's slightly ahead of the grid, just like the way it sounds. the grid is NOT lying to you.
rather, if you slide back the audio a few ms, it'll be SPOT ON the grid. assuming the playing was tight enough hehe.

well yeah, but my point was that I don't understand why it matters, unless you aren't gonna edit everything?

 

[Fragle]

well, obviously it's not *that* noticeable. we're talking a few milliseconds of course.
the thing is, it's not about editing stuff. it's about the FEEL of the playing. i'd like my playing to be not only tight, as in 4 tracks tight, but to have the notes fall exactly on a snare beat for example, so it's really punchy. i spend a great deal of attention to this kinda stuff when tracking guitars, and it always bugs the fuck out of me that it's not spot on but slightly ahead of the beat regardless of how much i'm focusing on playing stuff exactly on the beat. sliding back the tracks just a few ms gives makes the tracks sound like they felt when i recorded them.

 

[AudioGeekZine]

why not mess with the recording offset anyway.

When you record it, it sounds in time. Correct?
When you play it back it's now slightly off beat. Correct?

That is the recording offset. try a negative number

 

[deLuther]

Basically well made ampsim should not introduce additional latency, but poor fast convolution algorithms can add delay.

 

[Fragle]

why not mess with the recording offset anyway.

When you record it, it sounds in time. Correct?
When you play it back it's now slightly off beat. Correct?

That is the recording offset. try a negative number

how would you do that? i use reaper

 

[AudioGeekZine]

previously in the thread:

Reaper can adjust for this in the Audio>Recording preferences.