Meshuggah
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intimidatingcrustaceans
Official Threadkiller
hibernal_dream
A Mind Forever Voyaging
wankerness
Member
The best thing about this post is much of future breed machine doesn't fit into straight 4/4 (like, the EVOLUTION! IN REVERSE! part, and the entire clean interlude) and almost everything on chaosphere can (for example, there's not one single riff on New Millennium Cyanide Christ that can't be read as 4/4 with hella fukk polyrhythms).
hibernal_dream
A Mind Forever Voyaging
Polyrhythms? These are what define the time signature, not the 4/4 drums. Start listening to the music and not the percussion.
hibernal_dream
A Mind Forever Voyaging
None of New Millenium Cyanide Christ is 4/4 unless you split up the "polyrhythms" as you call them, which you are not meant to do
Anarkissed
BOK CHOY!!!
I reckon it makes more sense to measure by 4/4. From what I can hear in most of Chaosphere, the guitar/bass/double-kick have to cut themselves in order to match up with the 4/4, not vice versa.
That said, I'm no polyrhythm expert!
That said, I'm no polyrhythm expert!
wankerness
Member
I do listen to the music. If you took out the drums, it would most probably be written as a bunch of shifting time sigs. But, they intentionally go to lengths to ensure that it fits in 4/4. Note, for example, on NMCC how Haake constantly has the cymbal going in quarter notes and is constantly hitting the snare on 2 and 4, just like he would in any normal 4/4 song. His feet follow the guitars. I'd call it polymeter, as it is complex time signatures being overlaid on 4/4. They have stated numerous times in interviews that most of their songs are in 4/4, though, it's just a simple fact. You can chop the measures up into what the guitars/bass drums are playing if you want, but the song is still intended to be at least possibly heard as 4/4 thanks to the accents being preserved in the drums.
And Future Breed Machine does this same thing in some of the verse riffs - the whole intro and first verse up to the EVOLUTION! IN REVERSE! part is 4/4 but sometimes definitely doesn't sound like it is. It just has some sections (like that one and the clean guitar interlude, which I think is 4/4 and 5/8 alternating, that can't work out with 4/4 overlaid).
Yeah that was technical but that's the facts mister
Wankerness is right. Pretty much all Meshuggah is 4/4. For example, New Millennium Cyanide Christ begins with a riff in 23/16 (cymbal/snare in 4/4 of course), which is repeated five times, followed by a truncated 13/16 version of the riff. This adds up to 128/16, which can be rewritten as 32/4, which is the same as eight measures of 4/4. They use this in tons of songs.
Told you...haha. It's not that big of a deal, unless it makes you seem less "unique" because you listen to a band that writes in 4/4 like almost everyone else...
hibernal_dream
A Mind Forever Voyaging
What you're saying is that time signatures can be defined in different ways. This is perfectly true and everyone knows it. However if you define each bar in the some by 4/4 you will end up with some which sound like they are 'chopped up' and are clearly not 4/4. Normally you don't add up the total beats of a song and calculate the appropriate sig from there. Counting several bars as a composite (eg 23/16) is more accurate, even though you can count rhythms within the rhythm. When most people listen to it they simply don't hear it as 4/4.
wankerness
Member
hibernal_dream
A Mind Forever Voyaging
That's because you didn't explain why they are nullified, therefore I considered your post null. I'm also still debating that the songs are mostly 4/4.
wankerness
Member
Well, I'm a bit confused given that wasn't what you seemed to be arguing in the last couple posts, but as long as you've reversed your position from your initial "they're not in 4/4 past FBM" I consider this debate won 
I need to find some interviews with the guitarists, I know I've read some in the past but I've been having rough luck tonight. Here's one quote from Haake regarding their sigs though:
"Yeah, exactly. Especially for the "I" EP and for the "Catch 33" album. Weve always done repetitive cycles that are like not odd meters but are odd rhythms really, like a straight 4/4 beat but we play around that, we have odd figure cycles on top of that 4/4 beat which makes it kind of different. There are not a lot of bands that do that and thats what throws people off because its kind of hard to get a grasp of whats really happening. But for those two, the "I" EP and "Catch 33" album, it really is random, I mean even for us, its not really repetitive cycles, its just pretty crazy."
So yeah I guess in general I and Catch 33 don't adhere to the 4/4 thing. Some parts of I do, but I've never really listened to Catch 33 for time sigs, I'm kind of curious now.
I need to find some interviews with the guitarists, I know I've read some in the past but I've been having rough luck tonight. Here's one quote from Haake regarding their sigs though:
"Yeah, exactly. Especially for the "I" EP and for the "Catch 33" album. Weve always done repetitive cycles that are like not odd meters but are odd rhythms really, like a straight 4/4 beat but we play around that, we have odd figure cycles on top of that 4/4 beat which makes it kind of different. There are not a lot of bands that do that and thats what throws people off because its kind of hard to get a grasp of whats really happening. But for those two, the "I" EP and "Catch 33" album, it really is random, I mean even for us, its not really repetitive cycles, its just pretty crazy."
So yeah I guess in general I and Catch 33 don't adhere to the 4/4 thing. Some parts of I do, but I've never really listened to Catch 33 for time sigs, I'm kind of curious now.
hibernal_dream
A Mind Forever Voyaging
Well, I'm a bit confused given that wasn't what you seemed to be arguing in the last couple posts, but as long as you've reversed your position from your initial "they're not in 4/4 past FBM" I consider this debate won
I need to find some interviews with the guitarists, I know I've read some in the past but I've been having rough luck tonight. Here's one quote from Haake regarding their sigs though:
"Yeah, exactly. Especially for the "I" EP and for the "Catch 33" album. Weve always done repetitive cycles that are like not odd meters but are odd rhythms really, like a straight 4/4 beat but we play around that, we have odd figure cycles on top of that 4/4 beat which makes it kind of different. There are not a lot of bands that do that and thats what throws people off because its kind of hard to get a grasp of whats really happening. But for those two, the "I" EP and "Catch 33" album, it really is random, I mean even for us, its not really repetitive cycles, its just pretty crazy."
So yeah I guess in general I and Catch 33 don't adhere to the 4/4 thing. Some parts of I do, but I've never really listened to Catch 33 for time sigs, I'm kind of curious now.
Okay then, remove the drums - what rhythm do you have? That should be the time signature, not whatever the drums play. Haake is the drummer so of course he's going to describe what he plays.
wankerness
Member
Martin Hagstrom, one of the guitarists:
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans serif]MU: With so much going on in the music, do you spend a lot of time planning out the music and counting out parts and things like that? [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans serif]MH: Well, actually, if we're talking music theory, when it comes down to what we're doing, we're in 4/4 most of the time. It's just we have these odd patterns going over it. Sometimes that leads to the conclusion that it's all something we CALCULATE. I can see why people would think that, and on hearing it, I would probably think the same. But the truth of it is we were writing tunes like this back in the day when we were still being influenced by the thrash era, and Metallica type stuff. So we've just grown into ourselves sort of, it's just the way it comes out, I don't know why. [/FONT]
Don't make me find interviews with the other members too
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans serif]MU: With so much going on in the music, do you spend a lot of time planning out the music and counting out parts and things like that? [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans serif]MH: Well, actually, if we're talking music theory, when it comes down to what we're doing, we're in 4/4 most of the time. It's just we have these odd patterns going over it. Sometimes that leads to the conclusion that it's all something we CALCULATE. I can see why people would think that, and on hearing it, I would probably think the same. But the truth of it is we were writing tunes like this back in the day when we were still being influenced by the thrash era, and Metallica type stuff. So we've just grown into ourselves sort of, it's just the way it comes out, I don't know why. [/FONT]
Don't make me find interviews with the other members too
You said this yourself...can we just leave it at that? If you don't like the fact that a lot of Meshuggah's music can be read as 4/4, then don't. It's perfectly legitimate to say that the riffs are actually in a xx/16 time signature; as it is legitimate to perceive the music in 4/4. As the one who inadvertently started this debate in this thread, I like to see the riffs as you see them (divided into all those crazy time sigs). All I said was the riffs CAN be perceived as 4/4, which you concurred with in the quote above, it seems to me.
EDIT: Actually Wankerness, I wouldn't mind reading more Meshuggah interviews I'm too lazy to search for myself. Continue debate
wankerness
Member
You said this yourself...can we just leave it at that? If you don't like the fact that a lot of Meshuggah's music can be read as 4/4, then don't. It's perfectly legitimate to say that the riffs are actually in a xx/16 time signature; as it is legitimate to perceive the music in 4/4. As the one who inadvertently started this debate in this thread, I like to see the riffs as you see them (divided into all those crazy time sigs). All I said was the riffs CAN be perceived as 4/4, which you concurred with in the quote above, it seems to me.
EDIT: Actually Wankerness, I wouldn't mind reading more Meshuggah interviews I'm too lazy to search for myself. Continue debate
No, I'm angry at you for most probably just erasing the progress I'd been making in the last posts ><
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