Musician's Welfare

[seh750]

First off, great interviews in the program this year. I read them all straight through on the flight home.

In the interview with Alan from Primordial he mentioned the welfare system in Scandanavian countries and how musicians can essentially quit their jobs and focus full time on music. I recall that coming up in the Hammerfall interview a couple of years ago as well.

Ignoring the politics of it, I'm interested in how you all see this affecting the quality of music coming from countries with such a social system.

Obviously there are many truly great metal artists from countries such as Sweden. On one hand it seems this could be a modern equivalent of the noble patron who provided artists such as Mozart their livelihood, allowing them to focus fully on their art. On the other hand, much great music has come out of struggle, so perhaps its detrimental to the art by making the path too easy for the artist.


Thoughts?

 

[pack1fan4life]

Ignoring the politics of it

I'm not sure this can be done.

 

[seh750]

I'm not sure this can be done.

I have faith that we can discuss the musical ramifications without it devolving into a thread-locking shitstorm. (But I could be wrong).

 

[DarkEmpireGTR]

To avoid the political end of things and give my opinion on what seh750 asked: No, In my personal experience, I don't think ease of creation reflects the quality of the music. Some of my best songs were finished in two evenings, some I had to agonize over for a week or more. Sometimes great ideas flow out of you, sometimes you have to dig. The true artist will create art regardless of if he is living comfortably or living in squalor. So in that regard, the quality of music lies in the quality of the musician, not in his surroundings. I've known some very financially stable musicians living off of their parents right here in the good ole USA that have produced some great material, which really isn't very different from the social situation described (both remove the necessity for the "dayjob").

On a side note, from what I hear, gaining financial aid from governments such as Sweden isn't quite as cut and dry as simply showing up to the welfare office and saying "I'm a musician, give me money," either.

 

[dcowboys311]

In my humble (oh who are we kidding my opinions are never humble) opinion, there are many, many more shitty bands from Sweden than good ones. This is not unique to that particular country -- this is applicable to near every country on the globe. Truly great music will be written whether you are handed a check or not. Desire for expression drives great art. A paycheck drives crap.

 

[nailz]

Oh jesus fuck, queue political bullshit in 5...4....

 

[General Zod]

First off, great interviews in the program this year. I read them all straight through on the flight home.

On behalf of Milt and I, thank you.

In the interview with Alan from Primordial he mentioned the welfare system in Scandanavian countries and how musicians can essentially quit their jobs and focus full time on music. I recall that coming up in the Hammerfall interview a couple of years ago as well.

Ignoring the politics of it, I'm interested in how you all see this affecting the quality of music coming from countries with such a social system.

Obviously there are many truly great metal artists from countries such as Sweden. On one hand it seems this could be a modern equivalent of the noble patron who provided artists such as Mozart their livelihood, allowing them to focus fully on their art. On the other hand, much great music has come out of struggle, so perhaps its detrimental to the art by making the path too easy for the artist.

From what other musicians have told me, if you want to play guitar in Sweden, the government will essentially buy you a guitar and amp. In other countries, they will cover some of your touring expenses (if you complete the correct paperwork). As to whether or not it has a benefit worth paying for as a society and a culture (politics aside), it can't be anything but beneficial to the art. The more people you enable, the more will succeed. For many years I recall thinking, "What the hell are they putting in the water in Sweden?" It's a country of only 10 million... clearly it has a favorable impact.

 

[Comic Book Dude]

Not to be nitpicky, but I think the word "subsidy" might be more appropriate than "welfare"?

 

[seh750]

Not to be nitpicky, but I think the word "subsidy" might be more appropriate than "welfare"?

I was using the term that Alan used in the interview, don't know much about the specifics of how it works. The comments above about paying for instruments and supporting tour costs sounds more like a subsidy.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

First off, great interviews in the program this year. I read them all straight through on the flight home.

In the interview with Alan from Primordial he mentioned the welfare system in Scandanavian countries and how musicians can essentially quit their jobs and focus full time on music. I recall that coming up in the Hammerfall interview a couple of years ago as well.

Ignoring the politics of it, I'm interested in how you all see this affecting the quality of music coming from countries with such a social system.

Obviously there are many truly great metal artists from countries such as Sweden. On one hand it seems this could be a modern equivalent of the noble patron who provided artists such as Mozart their livelihood, allowing them to focus fully on their art. On the other hand, much great music has come out of struggle, so perhaps its detrimental to the art by making the path too easy for the artist.


Thoughts?

Sweden's Government programs for musicians are actually not all that special compared to Norway, Finland, and even Canada. Those countries actually give THOUSANDS of dollars to bands to tour, make music, etc, and apparently these programs work because they keep doing it and all of these countries (whether you disagree with fact that these are social programs or not, facts are facts) are in tip top shape economically (although that could be attributed to a refusal to enter the Eurozone, but I digress). I've heard Finnish bands getting 20,000 euro and Canadian bands getting $10,000 to tour outside of their countries. Enslaved said that their tour with Opeth a few years back was paid for by the Norwegian govt. However, Swedish programs basically just allow musicians to write off gear, but that's really it. It's very difficult to get the Swedish government to pay for a band to tour or fund an album.

In my opinion, I think it's a beautiful thing, and without it, we wouldn't be seeing these bands touring or making albums much at all due to labels becoming less and less focused on actual artist development (due to CD sales going down every year). Sadly, the days of labels giving bands tour support are pretty much over.

 

[PureXul]

Canadian bands getting $10,000 to tour outside of their countries.

And with that, a horde of angry metalheads descends upon the Canadian Embassy in DC to protest the assistance they've provided Blackguard and Into Eternity...

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Not to be nitpicky, but I think the word "subsidy" might be more appropriate than "welfare"?

Actually the term should be "grant."

 

[AeonicSlumber]

And with that, a horde of angry metalheads descends upon the Canadian Embassy in DC to protest the assistance they've provided Blackguard and Into Eternity...

Can't tell you if either of these bands toured on music grants, but they could have.

 

[DuchessOfDork]

In my humble (oh who are we kidding my opinions are never humble) opinion, there are many, many more shitty bands from Sweden than good ones. This is not unique to that particular country -- this is applicable to near every country on the globe.

I agree. That being said... I'm REALLY jealous because MAN OH MAN would I love to quit my day job and do music full-time!

 

[seh750]

...However, Swedish programs basically just allow musicians to write off gear, but that's really it. It's very difficult to get the Swedish government to pay for a band to tour or fund an album...

As I understand the tax laws from my own non-music-related businesses, the US should allow musicians to write off gear and tour expenses, at least to the point of any revenues coming in, so essentially you pay no tax on any money made. Unless one can prove its a "business" and not a "hobby" and then the entire loss can be written off, the test for which are active marketing and separate accounting for the enterprise. I have no clue if there are different rules for artistic businesses, but my point here is what you describe for Sweden sounds basically the same as what we can do in the US.

I found the Hammerfall intervew with Oscar Dronjak from the 2010 program: "We have this social security system in Sweden. When you don't work everybody gets a certain amount, a minimum existence amount. What I was making, when I was working, was below that, so I got some extra money from the government."

Seems perhaps there are two pieces of this. One is whether or not the musician can get living expenses while working on their artistic venture (and it seemed to me that's what Alan was referring to in Primordial's interview) and the other side is whether there is incentive or support for touring outside of the home country. It never even occurred to me that a government entity would help a band tour outside their borders, that's very interesting.

 

[Diamond45]

It's sort of like an artist's grant you can get in the US. But we all know that the US government doesn't have the money it used to, so getting a grant would be easier said than done.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

As I understand the tax laws from my own non-music-related businesses, the US should allow musicians to write off gear and tour expenses, at least to the point of any revenues coming in, so essentially you pay no tax on any money made. Unless one can prove its a "business" and not a "hobby" and then the entire loss can be written off, the test for which are active marketing and separate accounting for the enterprise. I have no clue if there are different rules for artistic businesses, but my point here is what you describe for Sweden sounds basically the same as what we can do in the US.

I found the Hammerfall intervew with Oscar Dronjak from the 2010 program: "We have this social security system in Sweden. When you don't work everybody gets a certain amount, a minimum existence amount. What I was making, when I was working, was below that, so I got some extra money from the government."

Seems perhaps there are two pieces of this. One is whether or not the musician can get living expenses while working on their artistic venture (and it seemed to me that's what Alan was referring to in Primordial's interview) and the other side is whether there is incentive or support for touring outside of the home country. It never even occurred to me that a government entity would help a band tour outside their borders, that's very interesting.

What Oscar is talking about has nothing to do with being a musician. That's an unemployment program in Sweden that applies to all Swedes. If you are unemployed, the Govt gives you a salary to live off of and pay your expenses. It's alot like our welfare program here, except the Swedes get alot more money from the Government. As a result, Sweden's unemployment levels and taxes are much higher than ours, but the quality of life is also higher. So there's the trade off.

Alot of "unemployed" musicians take advantage of this program because it means they don't have to have day jobs and they can pay their bills while focusing on their project. I'm assuming here that what he's saying is that he makes enough money with Hammerfall to still be eligible for this unemployment program, and so he gets extra money from the Government. So in this regard is how it relates to the Swedish "welfare" system. However, there are tons of Swedish bands that do not take advantage of this, and whose members have day jobs, because obviously they want to live a bit more comfortably maybe. Additionally, this isn't a program that specifically applies to Swedish musicians. Sweden doesn't really have a whole lot of Govt programs for musicians like other "socialized" nations do.

edit: I am not Swedish. All of the above comes from a basic understanding, so any Swedes looking to school me can most certainly do so. Only going by what I've been told.

 

[DarkEmpireGTR]

Actually, a buddy of mine who lives in Sweden told me he (at least at one point) collected unemployment and on top of that makes a living as a guitar teacher under the table. Work the system where you can, I suppose

 

[Element_man]

In Canada artists wanting to get support from the government have to apply for a grant, usually through the provincial government, but there are other organizations as well. It's a tough process I think they fund one project every quarter but I could be wrong. Striker has been to Europe two or three times for a tour now and each time the Gov't of Alberta has granted them enough money to cover their air-fare.

On a slightly different note, A friend spent her honeymoon in Cuba recently, a communist country. Musicians get paid salaries that cover wages for their gigs and rehearsals and so forth. Musicians are also highly-respected in the community, I found all this pretty interesting. Granted, We're not really talking about a bunch of Cubans jamming heavy metal, but you get the idea.

 

[seh750]

...I'm assuming here that what he's saying is that he makes enough money with Hammerfall to still be eligible for this unemployment program, and so he gets extra money from the Government....

I should have quoted a bit more: Oscar was talking about his job as a teacher prior to Hammerfall where he'd receive an additional subsidy. The next couple of lines talk about his income from Hammerfall quickly exceeding that so he quit his day job.

But your point is well taken that it seems to be a general welfare system that can easily be taken advantage of by musician's rather than musician-specific welfare.