NJ USA odenist chruch

[runemaster]

Sure correct away and by the way I never said I went to classes I said I went to lectures. Please don't turn this into a fight. I am not looking for trouble and yes this is a lost religion in a way. Just stop anyone on the street in a big city and ask them if they know what odenism asatru or any other name you could come up with is and you are going to get a puzzled look from them! That is a fact! And if you try to explain it to them you are going to get "is that Satanism is that a cult is that some dnd thing?" Now ask them what any of the big three religions are and you will get an ear full. Most people are turned off from paganism because of people trying to keep it a secrete. It makes it look like a cult or something by being open and having nothing to hide is the only way to restore the glory of a forgotten religion. If you think we have a hidden agenda then by all means come on down to your meetings and see for your self. All are welcome that is the purpose of this post. And by the way as sad as it is most people that go to concerts don't go because they are hard core into the message of the bands they go because the music sounds cool, just to fit in with their friends, have a good time, fight, drink, or to see other bands on the line up. i would bet any amount of money here in the us that 90% or so of the people at an amon amarth concert aren't odenists. maybe more. here in NYC at the last amon amarth concert half of the people there were of non European decent. By the way what is with all the hostility to wards me what have I done to you? In America where I live we have a thing called freedom of speech it is a great thing. Besides a true odenist shows hospitality to guests regardless of who they are. If you don't know what i mean just read the sagas and Edda's to refresh your memory! They are full of examples. Thank you for making me feel at home in "your brothers hall". All I want to do is give people in my area a chance to check out a real folk Faith church that is registered with the US government in action. They are free to draw all the conclusions they want after attending.


To have knowledge is good. To have knowledge and not share it is foolish. We want to share it how about you???

 

[Bates]

While Tyra has no need for me to defend her, this I will say, in response to your ending question. She has shared much knowledge and wisdom with all of us, and I, for one, am grateful and honored by it. Go read any of the longer threads and see for yourself.

 

[Tyra]

In one of your previous posts, you stated that you had read many books and attended many lectures etc on the subject of your faith. I therefore assumed that you would be familiar with how the screening process that a person goes through when he or she enters a new hall goes in the Norse culture. Many of us think of this forum as our hall, and all of us have been through some sort of "peer review". I had assumed that becuase you were familiar with the culture, you'd be comfortable doing it Norse style. OK, so you are apparently unfamiliar with what the thyle is and what the thyle does, and so you took offense instead. I never accused you of anything, never said anything against you or yours. I just asked simple yes or no questions for the simple reason that yes or no questions are not hostile, and I didn't want to have to go through posting a two page questionaire like I am now expected to. You recommended a website and those were the questions that came up when I read it. I am sorry if that hurt your feelings. Maybe you could point out which parts of my post were hostile? I'd like to know, cuz I speciffically went back and edited my post so that it would not come across as such.
You've extended the hospitality in Norse fashion. It's too far away for me to accept the invitation, but I may have friends that I thought may want to attend. I am not going to pass on the invite until I feel comfortable with who you are, though. There are some real morons out there, you and I both know that, and I think we're both painfully aware of how outsiders judge us as guilty by association. If you've nothing to hide, then I thought, you would not mind letting us get to know what you stand for a bit better before we make any committments to attending any gathering or promoting the event to our friends.

You ask in your post if I want to share knowledge. In my own post previous to that one, I asked you if it would be OK if I shared my knowledge with you, by correcting some factual errors. I asked you that because some people take offense when you try to share knowledge. I had expected you as an Odinsman to accept the knowledge in whatever shape it came. Odin gave his eye for knowledge, and he hung on Gungnir for nine days and nine nights for it. It is not always a pleasant experience to gain knowledge, and sometimes you end up with egg on your face. Not everybody enjoys this process, but an Odinsman still would grab the knowledge. Maybe you hought I was questioning your faith?
In one of your earlier posts, you stated something to the affect that (I paraphrase) you can read all sorts of books till you're blue in the face, but what's to say the author isn't full of crap and teaching you a bunch of crock. I whole heartedly agree with this. That's why I wanted to know who your sources of information are. You said the founder of your group was named Blumetti, I wanted to know if we were talking about the same Blumetti. Is that what was offensive?
The way people word posts sometimes become an issue, because we cannot see their faces, read their bodylanguage etc. In your post you used many words that are often used by a specific political faction. The Balder movement has become strongly associated with that same faction, and the website you promoted speaks of Balder cult. The old faith is a highly politicised faith. It was designed as such. I was not saying that there was anything wrong with that. I do not believe there is anything wrong with that. I was just wondering if this applied to you, too. Maybe that was offensive to you in some way?
Again, the wording of posts sometimes make people think we are something we are not because it is easy to misunderstand certain wordings and such. Outside of the continental US, Americans are often thought of as ethnocentric. Within that context, your earlier post could quite easily have been interpreted as you saying you thought the poor heathens of Europe needed big brother US heathens to come in and save them. Your own government has recently suggested this to be the case. I was hoping to find out if this was your thinking by outright asking you if you felt we really sounded like we had forgotten our faith. You have chosen to answer that question by pointing out how things are in the US, so I am guessing from your last post that your answer to that question is no, and that my original interpretation of your post was incorrect. If not, you're welcome to correct me.

 

[runemaster]

Odin hung him self on Yggdrasil not gungnir. The members of my group don't want to be known as ant-smites or anti-black or any other anti-race. The second you bring up political notions is when the accusations start I am sure you can understand that? I had no idea you consider a public forum as your hall. Maybe you should list that in the rules of posting and let people know they are going to get the 3rd degree if they post any thing like a friendly invitation to attend a meeting of odenists. If you don't want to promote our group to your friends that is fine by me but I just wanted to give any one a chance to attend. And maybe you should try to introduce your self before you start with the interrogation. That would make it sound less hostile.

 

[Tyra]

Odin hung him self on Yggdrasil not gungnir. The members of my group don't want to be known as ant-smites or anti-black or any other anti-race. The second you bring up political notions is when the accusations start I am sure you can understand that? I had no idea you consider a public forum as your hall. Maybe you should list that in the rules of posting and let people know they are going to get the 3rd degree if they post any thing like a friendly invitation to attend a meeting of odenists. If you don't want to promote our group to your friends that is fine by me but I just wanted to give any one a chance to attend. And maybe you should try to introduce your self before you start with the interrogation. That would make it sound less hostile.

OK, if you want to discuss semantics, we can do that, too. I think we both know I meant he pierced himself with Gugnir to hang on Yggdrasil. Or are you implying he stuck himself up there with glue or something?
If you had answered my question in the first post with a simple yes or know, I'd have known you didn't want to associate yourself with any political group. I had to ask, because like yourself, I am painfully aware of the issues. I didn't want to have to spell them out, though, because that really would have sounded antagonistic. I did not want to accuse you of being an anti-anything, I still have not. You recommended a website, and the queston still lingered, so I wanted to know.
I didn't say this was my hall. It's a public forum, and when you post in any forum, people ask questions, and sometimes (and especially in this forum)they joke about what you post, just like some of the kids did to you. Don't take it so seriously. I was using a metaphor for something with which you should be familiar to make it easier on you. I also went back and edited my post at one point, and introduced myself with name and website, just like you did. I've been on this board for ages, so if you want more information, it is quite easy for you to look up my previous posts. I have nothing to hide, it's all there, out in the open. Or you could ask me, and I'll answer as best I can. I chose the questions I did because they give me a very quick way to figure out exactly who you are. NB, you still have not answered them, but I guess you don't have to if you don't want to. It just makes it more difficult for me to want to send people your way, but that's no skin off my nose. I'll send them to Sleipnir's group instead - just thought that variatio delectat.

 

[Runesinger]

Going back to one of the initial discussions about whether a church is the correct term Odinist or Asatru religious structure: If you read in the Voluspo in Old Norse:

Hittoz æsir a ida uelli
þeir er hörg oc hof hatimbroðo.

Using the Henry Addams Bellowes English Translation

At Ithavoll met the mighty gods,
Shrines and temples they timbered high;

This gives us important information about Asatru religious structures. First of all, they were wooden (or timbered) structures. There were two kinds:

1. An outdoor altar (hörg). Probably located on a mound or hilltop, sacred clearing, or near a sacred spring or well. It might have a picket wall or fence around it to set it off.
   
2. An indoor meeting temple (hof). Its design was probably similar to some of the early stave churches, the version with the central support pole.

Tyra, if I have made some inaccurate assumptions, please add any corrections.

Runesinger

 

[Tyra]

I think this whole thing here is only ridiculous! To believe in, let's now fast only say Oden and then to call it USA Odenist Church is so stupid...
Had our ancestors an organized church?NO!
Nothing against organized groups, who are interested in the believe, but if you call it a "Church", it's not better than the Christian Church...

Ancient believe has nothing to do with an organized church!

Probalbly your members must pay church taxes, too....hehe

You know, Runesinger, I was going to post something along the lines of what you said, but I was thinking more in terms of the use of the word "church" in the English language. Fimbul Winter, quoted above, I think took offense to the use of the word in the sense of "Church - a building specially built, and set apart for the public religious worship, now used only of building devoted to Christian worship" as per Routledge's The Universal Dictionary of the English language. That original meaning, the etymology, comes from the Greek kuriakón, meaning "The Lord's House", which clearly indicates that we are talking about a building. For that reason, many pagan groups perfer to call themselves kindred or felag or Aettir or something like it, since we generally worship in no specific place or building.
There is, however, another meaning to the word church today. That is probaly what Runemaster's group are thinking of: "Formal organization for the maintenance and disemination of religious truth, having a definite form of government and various orders of officers, whose main function are the preservation and teaching of sound doctrine in matter of faith and morals." In a group where there is a founder who wrote the rules of conduct and where there is "a definite form of government", church is a perfectly appropriate word to use. It would not be an approproiate word for the Irminsul Aettir and many other asatru groups, since we do not have "a definite form of government". We're run by the members that show up, who all have equal vote before the thing. In many pagan groups, such as the theodic groups, for example, this is not the case. They have one gothi in charge of the whole group, or a council and members of the general populace. I do not know if this applies to Runemaster's group or not, and I am not going to ask, since he takes offense. Some religious groups use the word church just to distinguish them from other, non-religious, groups, such as re-enactment groups like the SCA (I think some of us find it an effort to not be confused with these groups: "Now don't get me wrong I am not some freak that thinks we should all dress up as the gods and stuff I am a regular Joe" - Runemaster), and sometimes it is done by necessity because the law has certain requirements as to who can run a non-profit organization etc.

Runesinger, what do you know about the use of the "vé" in the lore? Or Sleipnir or anyone else, do you know anything about those? They were raised structures, too. They are on the lawbooks from the first Christian courts in the Scandinavian countires, where it is said to be unlawful to raise harg or ve and to call out to the old gods or otherwise parctise asatru. I do have a better reference for this, but I have to dig it up.

 

[Runesinger]

I don't know of a lot of references in the sagas about a vé. There is a reference in the Voluspo, that seems to indicate that a vé means a place of warding. It seems to be a boundary that separates the holy from the unholy, as I mentioned before about a picket or fence of some kind, or possibly a hedge. The vé can enclose a hof or hörg.

In the case of seidhr, runagaldr, berserkgang or other shamanism/mysticism, it could enclose a special raised platform. This was more common in the east, like the Kievan Rus (Gongu-Hrolf's saga), although the platform was also described in the Laxdaela saga. The vé was always raised as a warding around this type of mystical work, as the spiritual nature of it often attracted undesirable spiritual entities.

Tyra, have you found or do you know of any artifacts indicating these types of raised platform structures? It would be very interesting to find out more about them. They seemed to be of great concern to the early Christian church in the North, so they must be spiritually useful. The platforms I heard of were raised on four posts, and high enough for a man to walk under.

Runesinger

 

[Tyra]

Yes, that's why I was asking. They must have had great importance, since they are speciffically mentioned as part and parcel of the things that Christians associated with the earleier faith. I recently came across an article about the vé in an archaeological context (can't remember what language it was in, but if it was in English I can forward it to you), which is why I was wondering about it in the lore - I had just not really paid attention myself. Most of the vé seem to have been destroyed purposefully when the Christian kings requested it, but also, from what I understand, they were wooden structures, and would not have left much archaeological trace that would be easily detected unless one were purposefully looking for one. Wood decays, but still leaves a nice chemical trace, even if there's just a hole or a flat area left behind. Wood postholes and such can be located, as long as you are looking for them on purpose. I was thinking that this might be one of those cases where I could be useful as an archaeologist.

 

[Runesinger]

The wooden postholes would be a good way to locate them. There should be four of them, and the location would probably be on stable soil on a hilltop or some location of spiritual significance. In Saxon areas, it was said that an oxhide was laid on the top, so it might give you an idea of the dimensions you would be looking for.

In Norway, the locations were in Christian times associated with trolls, so locations and structures named after trolls might be a place to look. Also, you know how fond Christians are of building their churches over the ancient sacred sites (e.g. the Cathedral of Chartres built directly over the Druids sacred grove Carnutes). You might try poking around the foundations of the older stave churches and other older religious structures. And who knows what might be under Storkyrkan?

Runesinger

 

[Celtik Militia]

the Cathedral of Chartres built directly over the Druids sacred grove Carnutes

what the? really?
Shit i didn't even know that.
next time i'll go to chartres i'll look at the cathedral differently.

 

[Tyra]

Hehe, yeah, this stuff screwes with your head...I now go to Swedish churches for the sole purpose of finding the pictures and carvings of the old gods contained within them. It's not all that uncommon to find nice big pictures of Odin or Thor, and every once in a while Freya. The Christians were awfully fond of parking "things" on pagan "things" - feasts, saints, churches, monasteries, you name it. It was an effective ploy, except for amongst the druids, because the druids had a dual role as political leaders along with the religious leader role. The druids are one of the few groups that the Romans tried to convert and subdue because of this - they were dangerous for the Roman state. If you were not a druid, but, say, a Germanic chief or a Celtic average joe, they'd just leave you alone, cuz your religion didn't mess up their plans for world domination. You probably already know that, though.

 

[Tyra]

On the topic of this kind of stuff, here's an excerpt from this Swedish guy, Martin Rundkvist, whose writings I have admired for a long time. He has a blogg site - Aardvarchaeology
I can't wait to see what he turns up:
"Dear Reader, let me tell you about my on-going research.

Written history begins late in Scandinavia. The 1st Millennium AD is an almost entirely prehistoric period here. Still, Scandinavian archaeologists have long had a pretty good general idea about late 1st Millennium political geography. The most affluent and powerful regions show up e.g. in hoard finds and expensively furnished graves. The distribution of Romanesque stone churches from the 11th and 12th centuries appears to correspond closely with the political heartlands of the preceding centuries, and with where there's good arable land for Medieval agriculture. We know where the petty kings held sway: Jutland, Funen, Zealand, Scania, Bornholm, Västergötland, Östergötland, Öland, Gotland, the Lake Mälaren provinces, the coastal provinces of southern Norway.


But knowing that there were major centres in a certain province isn't very satisfying. We want to know where the actual royal manors stood and what they were like. We want to stand on the site of the mead hall and delve into the royal household's rubbish pits. And in recent decades, work with metal detectors (most of it performed for free by Danish amateurs) has pinpointed a number of such places. Gudme on Funen, Uppåkra in Scania, Sorte Muld on Bornholm and Helgö on Lake Mälaren are among the wealthiest. But in most of Scandinavia's central areas, we haven't conclusively identified any central places of the 1st Millennium yet.

And that's where I come in. I live in the Lake Mälaren area, where there are lots of academic archaeologists. Two hours by car from my home, though, begins Östergötland, a really beefy central area, where there isn't a single research archaeologist to be seen. My skilful colleagues in that area all work at excavation units, doing rescue digs for highway and railroad projects. Such projects avoid promising central places. So I'm pretty much the only scholar active there at the moment who can choose sites to study solely on scientific grounds.

For a bit more than two years now, most of my work has been directed toward three main goals, all regarding the political elite of the late 1st Millennium AD in Östergötland.

Surveying the available evidence for the presence of the elite.

Finding elite settlement sites.

Finding out in detail what such sites are like and comparing them to their peers in other central areas.
The short version, when I need to explain quickly what my research is about, is that I'm looking for the Iron Age kings of Östergötland. (There were most likely lots of petty kings at any one time.)

I'm pretty much finished with step 1, having collected a lot of data and read through the literature. This process has actually killed off a number of candidate sites that I have found wanting in evidential weight. Step 2 is on-going, with fieldwork touching upon elite graves and a number of ploughed-over sites."

 

[Celtik Militia]

Hehe, yeah, this stuff screwes with your head...I now go to Swedish churches for the sole purpose of finding the pictures and carvings of the old gods contained within them. It's not all that uncommon to find nice big pictures of Odin or Thor, and every once in a while Freya. The Christians were awfully fond of parking "things" on pagan "things" - feasts, saints, churches, monasteries, you name it. It was an effective ploy, except for amongst the druids, because the druids had a dual role as political leaders along with the religious leader role. The druids are one of the few groups that the Romans tried to convert and subdue because of this - they were dangerous for the Roman state. If you were not a druid, but, say, a Germanic chief or a Celtic average joe, they'd just leave you alone, cuz your religion didn't mess up their plans for world domination. You probably already know that, though.

yeah i did already know that but i didn't think such a huge monument like the Chartres Cathedral was also an example of a christian monument built over a sacred pagan place.

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

Commopn sight with runestones in yer local church in sweden. Commonly more it would have been, but christians have a tendency to be destructive.