No wonder the Recording Industry is troubled +Shocking Quote from Universal Music CEO

Thus presenting an example of an industry that was awake, aware, and in full possession of a lobbying force of damn near epic proportions to help perpetuate its business model - and even they're not going to be able to hold out forever.

As the link you mention says, Verizon JUST announced a couple of days ago that they're opening up their phones so you can download your own ringtones, etc. to your phone.

But I've already hacked my cell phone to play part of a Tarot song :headbang::kickass::kickass:
 
You like to harp on that point.

As a fan of metal who would love to see bands like yours (and yes, even death metal - I don't care for it, but we are all oppressed metalheads in much the same boat), be more accessible and profitable than hip-hop or rap which is inherently uncreative and superficial, I simply bring up the $0 ≠ $15 point as something I believe we must consider and take into account when thinking of ways of making purchasing music legally more appealing to those who don't want to pay for it.

Discussing all the reasons why people engage in illegal file sharing is to try to understand their M.O. With a better understanding of how they justify their M.O. we're more likely to come up with ideas to sway their line of thinking...something akin to the "know thy enemy" rule before going into battle (did you hear that, Dubya 43?). I "harp" on the $0 option for obtaining music because I believe it a significant barrier to overcome if we are to convince people that it is better to support artists as yourself and give you reason to continue versus not paying you anything for your music they sampled and kept.

If the majority of the illegal downloaders are college or pre-college kids who have not yet had to support themselves with a full-time job, and are hence less appreciative of a hard-earned dollar in a day-job viewed less than ideal, then the $0 option becomes that much more relevant as a talking point. It cannot be ignored in any serious discussion to find ways to convince these kids that creating music takes a lot of hard work and talent, and that those who toil to make it deserve to be paid for their product.
 
You like to harp on that point. Getting music "for free" still requires a lot more work for the *average* consumer than going to Amazon.com and buying it. Had the business been awake and morphed its business model instead of sticking its collective head up it collective ass, they'd have taken a hit, but would be in far better shape, IMO, going forward.

Free is only free if it's convenient and easy for the mass market. File sharing isn't quite *that* easy, no matter how it's painted.

You can't control the illegal downloading market, so while it's existence is a relevant fact, it's not a particularly useful one. You *can* control your legal distribution presence, and the majors basically chose not to pay any serious attention to it - and they still don't.

I agree with most of what you said with exception that the labels still aren't paying serious attention to their legal distribution presence. They've been way slow at utilizing the technology, for sure, but it is happening. After all, isn't it the labels that must release their music for to iTunes in order for iTunes to legally sell their music?

Furthermore, any label (major or indie) or band like yours can utilize the free basic SNOCAP service and distribute their music on MySpace or their own websites for whatever price the label or artist determines. It can't get much easier for the consumer than that. It's an awesome and simple technology to use, and although the record labels can't take credit for inventing it, they can take credit for utilizing it.

Your assessment that the time an it takes an individual to search out and illegally download music via file sharing doesn't really make it a "free" proposition for the downloader -- that their time spent obtaining the unauthorized download is worth something equally as tangible as the time you spent writing your last record -- is interesting. If the illegal downloaders truly believed that their time was worth money, they would save themselves that time and money by quickly visiting the Division MySpace page and plunk down just $0.99 per song. For that to happen, the illegal downloader must believe that the time they spend finding each song is worth more than $0.99 to them, otherwise they'd be loosing. If the claims by music industry vendors like Mattias Norten and Lance King that illegal downloads hurt their business are true, then apparently a lot of illegal downloaders don't value their time as much as you and I would like to think they do. :erk:
 
I'd like the idea where people can listen to full samples of songs, but have them have advertisements embedded in them, or someone say "You're listening to this song from this band.. we hope you enjoy it and buy it". That way people would be able to actually listen to the song, but at the same time would have them buy the song (or the entire album) if they really liked it.
 
Your assessment that the time an it takes an individual to search out and illegally download music via file sharing doesn't really make it a "free" proposition for the downloader -- that their time spent obtaining the unauthorized download is worth something equally as tangible as the time you spent writing your last record -- is interesting. If the illegal downloaders truly believed that their time was worth money, they would save themselves that time and money by quickly visiting the Division MySpace page and plunk down just $0.99 per song. For that to happen, the illegal downloader must believe that the time they spend finding each song is worth more than $0.99 to them, otherwise they'd be loosing. If the claims by music industry vendors like Mattias Norten and Lance King that illegal downloads hurt their business are true, then apparently a lot of illegal downloaders don't value their time as much as you and I would like to think they do. :erk:

Actually, you're giving my assessment too much credit. :lol: I was merely stating that the average consumer is a lazy ass who's not as tech-literate as they'd like to think they are. That's not the profile of the average illegal downloader - which I think you nailed to a certain degree in you previous post - but I do think it characterizes the mass market a little better.

Oh, and I'm well aware of the legal downloading avenues. Labels are starting to use them, but I still very much get the impression they view them as a novelty, since the business model still seems to be to defend their right to have to force you to buy a CD every time you want to listen to something. Their PR stance is abysmal for trying to build future business...
 
More proof that people in the industry don't have a clue. They raised web streaming royalties a whopping 38 percent this past July. Because of that, outfits like Yahoo Radio and AOL Radio (which, by the way, has an awesome Power Metal channel) will be turned off soon.

So basically, they're biting the hand that feeds them. Not allowing people to actually LISTEN to the stuff you're trying to SELL. What's up with that? The bean counters just don't have an effing clue! :zombie:

More here at this link:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=a4iPFckiXqKo&refer=home

AOL May Silence Radio Service - 11/29 - Dulles, VA-based AOL and Yahoo may shut down their web radio services after being hit with a 38 percent increase in royalties as a result of the Copyright Royalty Board's decision in March. AOL and Yahoo stopped directing users to their radio sites after SoundExchange began collecting the higher fees in July.
 
More proof that people in the industry don't have a clue. They raised web streaming royalties a whopping 38 percent this past July. Because of that, outfits like Yahoo Radio and AOL Radio (which, by the way, has an awesome Power Metal channel) will be turned off soon.

So basically, they're biting the hand that feeds them. Not allowing people to actually LISTEN to the stuff you're trying to SELL. What's up with that? The bean counters just don't have an effing clue! :zombie:

More here at this link:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=a4iPFckiXqKo&refer=home

AOL May Silence Radio Service - 11/29 - Dulles, VA-based AOL and Yahoo may shut down their web radio services after being hit with a 38 percent increase in royalties as a result of the Copyright Royalty Board's decision in March. AOL and Yahoo stopped directing users to their radio sites after SoundExchange began collecting the higher fees in July.

Oh, they have a clue, all right: They want you to listen to what THEY want you to listen to. Period. End.
 
Oh, they have a clue, all right: They want you to listen to what THEY want you to listen to. Period. End.

But how do you know what is out there to buy? Hence my point. I'm not going to by music unheard (except in RARE circumstances). AOL Radio's Power Metal channel is a good way to see what's out there legally. Yet another showing of how messed up the industry has become. :erk:
 
But how do you know what is out there to buy? Hence my point. I'm not going to by music unheard (except in RARE circumstances). AOL Radio's Power Metal channel is a good way to see what's out there legally. Yet another showing of how messed up the industry has become. :erk:

I believe the point Stingray was making is that by forcing internet radio (and the variety it offers) off the air by making it way to expensive for an internet radio site to operate, the major labels and radio stations are in effect trying to kill the competition by trying to limit what can be listened to for free -- which is what big media want to sell -- which is the shit you hear on the radio. Big radio/media can afford such royalty increases, because the media conglomerates own the big labels.

I'm guessing that most of the indie labels light Nightmare, Sensory, SPV, Nuclear Blast aren't owned by one of the big 6 media conglomerates. When we buy from them, we're not supporting big media, so by default, big media isn't biting the hand that feeds them because we feed someone else. That is what big media doesn't want to happen. They want the whole pie, not just 96% of it.

It's all very depressing. :erk: So while I'm against illegal downloads of music from indie labels, big media doesn't get that much sympathy from me on the downloading issue when they pull the bullshit above. They are obviously seeking a complete monopoly. Purchasing music from independent labels (and not sampling it and keeping it), we show big media that we have a voice when indie labels report their sales. It may be small, but it's better than no voice which is what big media desires. Every indie record you purchase is a stick-in-the-eye of big media. Make the stick bigger by purchasing indie music. Sampling and keeping indie music w/o then paying for it just aids big media in their goal of total control. Your purchase is your voice that tells big media and the crap they try to force upon us to FUCK OFF!
 
Every indie record you purchase is a stick-in-the-eye of big media. Make the stick bigger by purchasing indie music. Sampling and keeping indie music w/o then paying for it just aids big media in their goal of total control. Your purchase is your voice that tells big media and the crap they try to force upon us to FUCK OFF!


Maybe I'm alone here, but my music purchases are in no way fueled or motivated by an agenda, be that social, political, anti-big media, etc. I buy music that I enjoy, not because I care about who's is/isn't making the money off of my sale.
 
What is needed is what I said a long time ago: Let the indies rule online. There is NO reason in this world why AOL radio cannot exist. Just cut the deal with the indie labels, and leave the majors out to dry. In the case of AOL, you can get waivers from Warner Music. There is NO reason in this world where internet radio cannot exist. Just say, "We will not play any music from RIAA members." And, stick to it. Now, bands who get zero airplay on terrestrial radio will now have a choice to make: Do I sign with Clive Davis and RCA, where I will get next to ZERO airplay on regular radio? Or, do I sign with Diamond45 Records, where I will get SOME airplay on internet radio?
 
What is needed is what I said a long time ago: Let the indies rule online. There is NO reason in this world why AOL radio cannot exist. Just cut the deal with the indie labels, and leave the majors out to dry. In the case of AOL, you can get waivers from Warner Music. There is NO reason in this world where internet radio cannot exist. Just say, "We will not play any music from RIAA members." And, stick to it. Now, bands who get zero airplay on terrestrial radio will now have a choice to make: Do I sign with Clive Davis and RCA, where I will get next to ZERO airplay on regular radio? Or, do I sign with Diamond45 Records, where I will get SOME airplay on internet radio?

I agree completely.
 
Or, do I sign with Diamond45 Records, where I will get SOME airplay on internet radio?

I don't run a record company, but you might want to contact Lance. He might help ya out there. :lol:

Seriously - I agree with your point. Let the RIAA and large labels die a horrible death. Let the indie labels rule!

Its just a shame that Nightwish and a few other bands that I like are on major labels in the US. :ill:
 
I don't run a record company, but you might want to contact Lance. He might help ya out there. :lol:

Seriously - I agree with your point. Let the RIAA and large labels die a horrible death. Let the indie labels rule!

Its just a shame that Nightwish and a few other bands that I like are on major labels in the US. :ill:

Do you understand that most indie labels sign bands hoping that one of theirs gets really really big and picked up by a major label so they can get "points" on all their albums? That's how all of the small labels expect to turn big profits. Without big labels out there for the indie labels, most of them would close up shop in a short amount of time because their business model would no longer work for them either.
 
Most people don't download music simply because it's free. People download music because it is more convenient. Yes, price happens to be a major factor in determining convenience. What the labels needed to do was to provide a way for people to get their product that was MORE convenient than going online and getting it for free. This is not impossible. Higher speed downloads? Guaranteed availability of content? Extra content/privledges? Deals on concert tickets? The list goes on.

Downloading has two big things going for it: 1) It's free. 2) You can get it without having to leave your house or (usually) wait on line.

For you downloaders though, especially those with tastes in music as strange as us: How many times have you gone online looking for an album that you simply couldn't find? Now think about if you had seen that album in a store at a reasonable price... You would have bought it, right?

People who download music because it's free will only get their music for free. They are simply put, not customers. They are like the people who go to a bar that offers $1 drinks on an off night and for two hours only. They go there only on that night, get drunk and leave. These people are not ever going to do anything to help your business no matter what you do. Thankfully, these people are the extreme minority.

At this point, iTunes has proved that people are willing to purchase downloaded songs (we can save the DRM issues for another argument) if there is a convenient platform in place to support it. It is exactly what the record companies should have supported from the very beginning.

People who make it a point to only get music when they can get it for free are, simply put, thieves. They should not be considered in the business models whatsoever...and the music companies should have every right to go after these people (and it should be just these people) with every legal option available to them.

I may have to actually print and frame your posts! Finally someone gets it!

Okay, a few things...

The whole notion of the record industry being like the person who thinks they may have a cold but waits to call a doctor is valid - not everyone has perfect foresight. The comment that in this case the record industry waiting until they were terminally ill to call a doctor is ALSO valid here - enough occurred that the record industry should have been able to see what was really happening.

The problem with this metaphor is that we are using a DOCTOR as the person to call on for aid. Everyone knows what a doctor is, how to contact one, what to expect from them, etc. File sharing and online music were not a longstanding medium, they popped up overnight - and worse, suddenly EVERYONE had access! Finding the right people to address a completely new situation like that is less like needing to find a doctor than needing to find an exorcist. Something strange is happening to you - it's totally unfamiliar so for a while you try to write it off. Then after a while you sigh and go, 'dear god, I can't believe this shit - I'm actually possessed!'. But how are you going to find a GOOD exorcist? Are they listed in the yellow pages? Is there some source of common knowledge distinguishing between a good and a bad exorcist? Can you tell the difference between a real exorcist and the thousands of frauds out there sprinkling tap water for a few bucks? That's the situation the music industry was in - they needed to hire tech people at a time that 'internet/computer tech people' was as random a job as 'fortune teller'. The internet changed things very fast - don't forget it was not too many years ago this thing we use every day of our lives for every imaginable application didn't even EXIST!

Could the music industry have gotten ahead of it? Yes... IF they had some major unbelievable visionaries who somehow managed to figure it all out... BUT not figuring it out in time was the more likely scenario... and it is far from the complete ball drop 'bunch of idiots' scenario people seem to think. Even NASA blows up billion dollar space ships now and then because someone forgot to carry the 1. We expect so much of people - don't forget the people who run labels, etc, are not so different from you and I.

Fiddler:

Your idea interests me, but be careful. Relying on people to 'do the right thing' is always certain doom. Everyone is out for his own self interest, and it is ALWAYS in the individual's interest to set up rules for the group, and then shirk those rules secretly for his own maximum advantage.

At a baseball game, it would be in the best interest of everyone to remain seated during a critical play so EVERYONE can see. But then there is always ONE person who stands up to maximize his own advantage, starting a domino effect, and soon enough, the whole crowd is standing, all of them in the same situation they were to begin with - only less comfortable having abandoned their seats.

The reason we have taxes to support public parks and the military is because if support for these entities were OPTIONAL, no one would - each person saying 'I'll save my money, someone else will certainly take care of it'

You're wandering down a very Marxian path - don't give people that much credit for their righteousness and altruism - you'll find yourself constantly disappointed.
 
Do you understand that most indie labels sign bands hoping that one of theirs gets really really big and picked up by a major label so they can get "points" on all their albums? That's how all of the small labels expect to turn big profits. Without big labels out there for the indie labels, most of them would close up shop in a short amount of time because their business model would no longer work for them either.

I understand from both a small label and from a small band wanting to make it "big" in terms of landing a contract with a big label. More money. Don't blame them.

But I'm against the RIAA and the crap they pull. So I'm pulling for indie labels and could care or less on how the major labels survive (or not) with this "crisis".