NOW WHERE IS YOUR GOD?!. Posters annoy.

[AchrisK]

Yeah man those newborn babies are just fucking trouble-makers damned to hell. Original sin is fucking stupid.

And how about those poor aborted ones?

The Bible doesn't go into detail about exactly what will happen in every different circumstance. Many people believe that there is an "age of accountability" before which a child is considered to young to be responsible for their eternal destination. This is not explicitly said in the Bible, but there is something about people being judged based on what they have been given or what they know. How this works, I cannot say.

 

[AchrisK]

My previous post answers your question:

But just because he knows doesn't mean that he dictates what will happen. If he is truly giving free will, then we truly have choices. He can work out circumstances and things within and around our choices without making our choices for us. Thus we have something for which to be evaluated.

 

[AchrisK]

So you believe...

Right.

 

[Valerie]

And how about those poor aborted ones?

Those are irrelevant. You said everyone has committed sin. They haven't.

 

[AchrisK]

Those are irrelevant. You said everyone has committed sin. They haven't.

OK, but I don't think aborted babys are irrelevant.

 

[Ender Rises]

You believe He knows everything. He created the world. He created us. And when he created us he knew what we would do and what we would believe, down to the last detail.

Regarding Lot's wife... He could have avoided turning her into a pillar of salt. He knew she would look back regardless of the warning the angels gave her. Also, the whole looking back thing is from Greek mythology, Persephone let some dude bring his wife out of the underworld as long as he didn't look back as he left with her, and he did at the last second and lost her.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

But what does it prove that God knows how it will all go down?

In order to have free will, a person must be in control of the decisions he makes. If God can know everything about a person before the person makes any decisions, then the decisions that eventually occur were pre-determined, and therefore out of his control. Please tell me you understand this.

 

[skeptik]

God chose to create the world as it is. He knew the way the world would be when he chose to have the world as it is. He chose this world in favor of an infinite amount of other possible worlds. In doing so, he chose the world in which I would be typing this right now and you would be reading it. I don't have a choice in the matter. God chose to create this world, the one in which I would be typing this right now, so I cannot choose to not type this. And if I did stop typing, that would be the world that God chose to create, the one in which I began typing this post, but then stopped. God chose this world in which we make the choices that we make. He did not throw some dice and out popped this uniquely randomized world; rather, he very explicitly created this world to be what it is.

 

[genocide roach]

what kills me is if someone posted "believe in god" the add wouldnt be pulled and they wouldnt need proof of his existence.

i had this debate at work yesterday. actually, it was more me being chastised for being agnostic. they simply wont hear my argument against religion...

fucking religious nuts. i dont support terrorism, but if someone burned every church with all their followers in them, i wouldnt complain...
~gR~

 

[Ultimate_Symphony]

Truth dictates what is wrong and right. So you think that not making a choice is the wisest way any human can handle a search for truth? I disagree.

I sure hope you have a better answer than that. What is truth anyway? What religion has the irrefutable answer to salvation? Like I said before, with religion you don't have a solid facade you can get attached to.

I never said not making a choice was the wisest way to handle the ''truth'' but heaven forbid I take part in the fuckin' circus that religions make.

The Bible doesn't go into detail about exactly what will happen in every different circumstance. Many people believe that there is an "age of accountability" before which a child is considered to young to be responsible for their eternal destination. This is not explicitly said in the Bible, but there is something about people being judged based on what they have been given or what they know. How this works, I cannot say.

Yes, common religious knowledge says that children cannot be judge because they are are not corrupted. Their acts (the bad and the good) are made out of ignorance, therefore they cannot be judged. Most believe there's a certain point when one attains that level of judgement and you are responsible for seeking the answers and your salvation

 

[byrne]

i lol'd

 

[arg]

fuck richard dawkins

 

[AchrisK]

In order to have free will, a person must be in control of the decisions he makes. If God can know everything about a person before the person makes any decisions, then the decisions that eventually occur were pre-determined, and therefore out of his control. Please tell me you understand this.

@Dodens as well:

I think that pre-known is different from pre-determined. In other words, just because he knew doesn't mean it wasn't your choice. If he is outside of time and sees history somehow all at once, like looking at a timeline drawn in a book, then of course he will know. But that doesn't mean he dictated what choice you would make.

 

[Ender Rises]

Yes he did, because he created the universe. He could have created you as an atheist and me as a Christian, but he didn't. He knew every little detail of the universe he was creating, so he knew when he created it what every single person in the future would do.

 

[AchrisK]

I don't think he created me as a Christian and you as an Atheist. He created us as people, and we went in different directions. Yes, in creating the universe he did start something that would end up a certain way, which he could see from the start. But by saying that we don't have free will, you are saying that what we are doing is God's will. That the choices we make are the ones he wants us to make. But I disagree with that. It is his will that we make good choices, but it is also his will that we have free will, and thus he allows us to make bad choices.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

I think that pre-known is different from pre-determined.

Of course it is, but if something can be pre-known, then it had to have been pre-determined somewhere. And I don't think you want to concede that something other than God is predetermining things.

In other words, just because he knew doesn't mean it wasn't your choice. If he is outside of time and sees history somehow all at once, like looking at a timeline drawn in a book, then of course he will know. But that doesn't mean he dictated what choice you would make.

So how would this model prevent God from affecting history? He did set history in motion himself, right? If he really is omnipotent he could have chosen to create the universe in a different way than what is described in Genesis. He should have control over all events in history no matter when they happen, in fact.

 

[genocide roach]

he created the universe? prove it
~gR~

 

[Cythraul]

Of course it is, but if something can be pre-known, then it had to have been pre-determined somewhere.

Why? I can see how the following is true:

It is necessarily the case that if God knows x will happen, then x will happen.​

But I do not know what your justification is for the following:

If God knows x will happen, then it is necessarily the case that x will happen.​

Let me quote something I said a while back in the religion thread. Consider the following:

"Suppose I want Alter to be punched in the face. Further suppose that I know you would like to punch Alter in the face and that at some point you will have an opportunity to do so. Suppose that, knowing this, I implant a device in your brain which works in the following way: If you are in the presence of Alter and are on the verge of deciding not to punch him, the device intervenes and causes you to punch him in the face. However, if you decide to punch Alter in the face all on your own, the device does nothing at all. In this case it seems that I can know that you will inevitably punch Alter in the face, and that you will not be able to do otherwise. But intuitively it seems that you could still make a choice to punch Alter in the face. So if the example has the consequence I suppose it does, you can freely choose to do X even if you could not have done otherwise and somebody knows you will do X."

 

[sevag00]

Close this shit thread.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Why? I can see how the following is true:

It is necessarily the case that if God knows x will happen, then x will happen.​

But I do not know what your justification is for the following:

If God knows x will happen, then it is necessarily the case that x will happen.​

Those are the same damn thing.