Oliver/Dawson Saxon?

[nightwar]

Hi, All!
What is your opinion on Oliver/Dawson Saxon?
Are they worth watching live?
What do you think of their material? - this includes Steve's and Graham solo stuff.
Will Biff ever forgive and forget?
How do you feel about Pete Gill's and Paul Johnson's involvement?

 

[Fingers]

Hi, All!
What is your opinion on Oliver/Dawson Saxon?
Are they worth watching live?
What do you think of their material? - this includes Steve's and Graham solo stuff.
Will Biff ever forgive and forget?
How do you feel about Pete Gill's and Paul Johnson's involvement?

Nightwar,

probably best to scroll through some old topics on this subject rather than re-opening it, you'll get the jist of most peoples feelings.

 

[papadoc]

Well put it this way Nightwar, I bought their DVD 'Rock has landed, it's alive' on ebay the other day for 99p, just to satisfy my curiosity, and all I can say is that it is not worth that price.

It is terrible, the singer voice is awful, and the show is obviously mimed apart from a couple of minutes at the start and the end.

Avoid at all costs!!! (even 99p)

 

[nightwar]

OK - Thanks, Guys.
As a new member to the forum, I obviously did not know that this was a subject that had grated the nerves!
Mr Fingers - I will take a look through the archives, like you've advised!
Mr Papadoc - I'm shocked to hear that Graham Oliver and Steve Dawson would attempt to rip off the fans with 'mimed' music. Tell me it ain't true!

 

[mmurnau]

Well I'll sheepishly put my hand up and admit to owning the Rock Has Landed DVD. It is indeed, total crap.

I THINK what they've actually done is to take the video image from one concert, and pair it off with sound recorded from an entirely different night. So I don't think they're strictly speaking miming but the effect at some points is terrible. The singer shouts to the crowd at different times on the video to the soundtrack, and there are incidences of lead vocals being clearly heard when the singers head is nowhere near a microphone. In some ways it looks worse than if they HAD mimed.

All instances of the word "singer" above can be taken with the level of salt you prefer, of course. Personally, I don't think he's so bad on songs like One More for the Riad and Past the Point, written after leaving Saxon, because they were written for that vocal style. I just think he murders the Saxon classics, that's all.

 

[heavycelli]

I just think he murders the Saxon classics, that's all.

I fully agree with this mmurnau.... Its a pitty that Graham Oliver did surround him with that kind of vocalist... But of course I still like the way Graham is playing on his guitar .. OK he left Saxon.. but ... that is not a reason why I should hate him.. I have no problems with him and I thank him for his work in the past... Im honest...

 

[nightwar]

Thanks for your views, Mmurnau & Heavycelli,
I have to admit, this whole miming nonsense sounds ridiculous! And if the audio was recorded during another gig this is even worse!
I have nothing against Graham Oliver or Steve Dawson - I even have there solo stuff - but how do they expect to win over the fans if they produce nonsense like this?
The vocals ain't the same as Biff (in the CD Landed), I agree, but it isn't awful. I pretty much like the version of 747 with those vocals.
Apart from the crap drum sound, I think 'Victim You' was a decent album. It was more Rock (AC/DC) as opposed to Metal (Maiden/Saxon) but I have no complaints there.
I have always thought that Oliver was a great guitarist. The solos for 'Power & the Glory' and 'Dallas 1pm' are class!
Oliver & Dawson were obvious factors in regard to the writing of the earlier Saxon classics, and it's nice to know the fans aren't going all 'Pink Floyd' on the members and ex-members. Fans of Saxon are too intelligent for that!
I just hope that Oliver/Dawson will have a little more respect for their fans when they release future material.
Personally, I will purchase their next release (if there is one) but I want no bitterness from the guys and NO miming if it is live! Leave that to Top Of The Pops!

 

[mmurnau]

Yeah I'd buy an O/D Saxon album, but the point is they've been around for years now and still haven't released a full studio album. Victim You was some side project done beforehand with a different vocalist and drummer (how they got Pete Gill roped in is a mystery!) so I don't really see that counting for very much.

I've probably said this before, but they could be a credible band if they wrote a new album and constructed a setlist around the new songs, Victim You songs and some Saxon classics -- a bit like the situation with Blaze, who I think are great.

Personally I'd prefer a name change as well. "Son of a Bitch" is a bit juvenile to be honest, but "Oliver / Dawson Saxon" is a totally ridiculous name in itself -- which often leads to confusion on printed posters as well.

So, in a spirit of helping them out, I spent, oooh, 30 secs thinking of what they could be called. How about "Wheels of Steel" (in the same way DiAnno had a band called Killers after Iron Maiden). Or something related to Saxon in history. Aethelred!

Lets not be completely sarcky with the suggestions tho!

 

[nightwar]

Mmurnau - Although you won't admit it (vain beast you are!) you've been really perceptive about this whole matter!
Thinking about it, 'Victim You' is pretty old now, and if Graham Oliver & Co (SOB) were serious they would've done something by now!
The name 'Son Of A Bitch' was dumped by Biff and the boys in the late seventies for being too juvenile so you have a point there!
As a Blaze fan, I fully support your view on the setlist matter - If Oliver, Dawson & Co made an album or two of their own stuff, they could easily mix in other Saxon songs without critisism or comparison.
'Wheels Of Steel' as a band name? That is pretty smart! Simple, but smart!
All they need is something for the fans to relate to, but not be accused of attempting to be the 'Real' Saxon!
Basically, we are saying this:
If Graham Oliver, Steve Dawson and Co wish to be treated seriously by the Saxon Fans, they are required to establish themselves as a valid act. They need to provide a proper identity for us to relate to.
This all sounds a bit too business-like and stuff, but I think it is true.

 

[mmurnau]

Aww shucks, nightwar, stop it with the nice comments before you make me blush

Yeah, I think O/D need a proper identity. Its not just us on here that see them as a laughing stock. Consider the comments in Powerplay magazine and elsewhere (a review of some album recently said that band X sounded like a second-rate Saxon, but at least they weren't as bad as O/D, etc etc).

In general, the "true metal" community is pretty solidly behind Biff and the boys, while the O/D fans (and I HAVE met a couple) seem to be mainly middle-aged bikers who never listened to Saxon past 'Crusader' anyway. But there is, nevertheless, a split, which isn't healthy for anyone and should be rectified asap.

I can see the posters now: "WHEELS OF STEEL", and then in smaller type underneath, "featuring former members of Saxon". With some new songs under their belt I'd be well up for going to see that.

Lets not forget, despite all the mud that's gone under the bridge since, Steve Dawson was a major songwriting force in Saxon during his years in the band. I'd like to hear what he could come up with nowadays.

 

[Saracen84]

I think O-D Saxon is worth checking out, they do a pretty good live show, but it's unfortunate about the DVD audio sync problems and stuff. There are 6 new songs to check out, one of course being 'One For The Road' from the live DVD, and 5 other songs on a studio compilation CD from 2003 with Tygers Of Pan Tang and Girlschool. Each band has 5 songs on a CD called 'Second Wave'. These new songs definately worth giving a listen to.

 

[nightwar]

You can blush all you like, Mmurnau! It's just great to hear from fans with realistic views. Like you said, these guys have written great songs in the past and should still be respected, even though they fell out with Biff and Quinny. If we were to be honest, Saxon would not have that 'Saxon' sounb these days, if it were not for Oliver/Dawson's influence.
I can believe the O/D fans being ageing bikers - I can imagine they only listened to Saxon up to 'Strong Arm Of The Law'!
Although, weirdly, when I was at Wolves 'Civic' recently, I bumped into a young guy - about 15 years old - who was wearing an Oliver/Dawson T-Shirt. He was a big fan of both bands and we had a little chat. It was nice to see.
Steve Dawson was recently on a Sky One show about the best of Heavy Metal - he seemed like a really nice bloke - really down to earth. He had a laugh about his one-arm-in-the-air stance and explained the Spinal Tap legend. I think it is evident what an influence Steve Dawson had on Saxon when you listen to his 'Pandemonium Circus' album. OK - the production is a bit rough (some songs were simply Demos) and dated (most were recorded in the late eighties) but there is some material there that would make the listener wonder if it was performed by Saxon. Some nice tunes.
I hope O/D continue, so I can watch them live. But they do need to create more material and give themselves that ID that doesn't indicate any resent towards Saxon.
Saracen - Do you know where I can get the 'Second Wave' CD from? Thanks for the info!

 

[Saracen84]

nightwar;

Second Wave is available online at amazon.co.uk for you in UK
( http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000TAPR4/qid=1090081749/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_11_1/202-5920463-5434236 )...

It's also at amazon.com. Just be sure to select the right one, it seems there's several other CDs that have the name Second Wave in the title. The one of interest here is by Communique Records and catalog # CMG CD025.

Also, you can go to http://members.rogers.com/oliverdawsonsaxon/ to check out some sound clips.

Not to drag it all up for debate again, but , you said ' they fell out with Biff and Quinny ', from what I know, I think it was more rather Biff (only) fell out with Oliver/Dawson.
Anyway, you are correct that there is no denying Oliver and Dawson were huge contributors to the music we all love, and there would be no Saxon of today or the past is it wasn't for them (as well as Biff and Co., of course).

Keep on Rockin' !

 

[nightwar]

Thanks for the links! I will check 'em out!
No worries, Saracen - It did appear that Biff was the one that had the problem with Oliver & Dawson. I think Quinny just went with the flow. He's obviously good mates with Biff - they played in Coast together, before Saxon - and just kept his head down.

Apparently, Biff intends to write a book some day and all will be revealed about the bust up. But, at the moment, I have heard so many versions of why the guys fell out, that I've decided not to take sides.
I've heard rumours etc. but does anyone out there know the real reason why Graham Oliver and Steve Dawson left?
Sorry to bring this up if it is old news for hard-core Saxon fans, but something bad must've happened for these guys to leave. Like you said, 747, they were major writers in the band. Steve Dawson obviously provided a lot of melody (amazing for a bass player) on many of the songs, and Graham Oliver came up with some really solid riffs.
It is still kind of vague why Pete Gill and Nigel Glockler left.
As for Nigel Durham and Paul Johnson - I never really rated them. What are they up to now, I wonder?

 

[Paxoman]

With all due respect to you both nightwar and mmurnau, we have had this discussion on here before about the O/D thing. There is no problem with you discussing it all again because new people join this board all the time (and a good thing that is too!). But the thing is this.........

The last time we discussed this we were all pretty much in agreement that O/D were doing themselves no favours at all with all this O/D Saxon b******s, and were alienating themselves from all true Saxon fans. We all agreed that we would have been behind them had they not called themselves O/D Saxon, and had called themselves SOB (or something different). That was ages ago that we discussed this, and what has happened since then? Oliver/Dawson are still calling themselves O/D Saxon (despite losing their court case!). What it all comes down to is Oliver/Dawson couldn't write a decent song anymore if their lives depended on it. So they just plod along with their second rate Saxon show, making a complete laughing stock of themselves.

Sure, Graham Oliver and Steve Dawson were part of the Saxon who wrote such fantastic songs. But those songs were a hell of a long time ago. Graham Oliver is a great guitarist, who has written some excellent riffs. But the truth of the matter is that he just isn't coming up with the goods anymore. Check out the last three Saxon albums (not including HMT). Three albums with Doug Scarratt on, and possibly only 2 or 3 'iffy' tracks on them (not bad for three whole albums!)

I believe Pete Gill left Saxon because of health reasons (he made Biff sick! NO I'M ONLY JOKING THERE!). Nigel Glockler left because he had back problems. But he was still writing with Saxon, and he wrote some of the stuff on Killing Ground. But it doesn't sound like he has written anything on the new album.

Last time I heard of Paul Johnson was that he was in a band with his brother called Guns n Oatcakes. But he left them to become a driving instructor! Last time I heard of Nigel Durham was that he was in a piss poor tribute band called Oliver/Dawson Saxon!

 

[mmurnau]

To be honest Pax I'm basically in agreement with what you're saying. The thing that most pisses me off is when they are advertised as just SAXON because that's plain misleading. I personally sent an email of complaint to that Biker's fest where 'Saxon' were being advertised and O/D were, in fact, playing. I got no response whatsoever. As a result I didn't go, even though I wanted to see both the Quireboys and Tygers of Pan Tang (I have since been in a front-row position to see Quireboys support UFO at Rock City, so I don't mind so much. But I still haven't seen the Tygers).

On the other hand, there's something in me that wants to forgive them SO LONG AS THEY GIVE ALL THIS STUPIDITY A REST. It would be nice to have another genuine UK Heavy Metal band touring rather than, for the main, having to rely on the odd European band bothering to include the UK in their tour as I do at present. Plus, of course, looking forward to Bloodstock each year.

I'm aware that not everyone wants to be so forgiving, though. And not without reason as I well understand.

 

[Paxoman]

Nice one mmurmau for writing that email of complaint. It's no surprise that they didn't bother getting back to you though! B******s!

I am not prepared to forgive O/D for what they have done, even if they changed their name. It would have been different if they had not played silly buggars, and I would have been 100% behind them. Others may feel different, and that is fair enough, everyone has their own view and opinion. I am just saying the way I feel. As I have said before, I'm sure Biff is no innocent in all this. But that didn't give Graham Oliver and Steve Dawson the right to do what they did/are doing.

 

[nightwar]

I just can't see why Oliver & Dawson didn't create their own identity straight away. And I'm shocked if they are still playing the 'Saxon' card after losing the court case. Come on, Chaps, you've got bags of talent! You don't need to do that! Prove all the critics wrong and make a kick-ass album under your own name!
As for Paul Johnson and Nigel Durham - they never really had any input into the band. Biff played bass on 'Rock The Nations' (pretty well, I might add!) and Nigel Durham only sticks in my memory for that 80's style of drumstick spinning!
It would be nice to know how Pete Gill is getting on, though.

 

[mmurnau]

No, exactly, and they'd have made life much easier for everyone concerned if they had forged their own identity straight away. As for the bags of talent, well they certainly used to have it, but they need to actually write new songs to prove that they aren't purely relying on past glories.

As for Nigel Durham, he was the drummer on the Destiny album (which I'm listening to right now to refresh my memory). Destiny has the most basic drumming ever heard on a Saxon album.

Pete Gill's involvement bothered me a bit more because he was obviously a talented drummer while in Saxon. However, remember that he was only in the SonofaBitch project with Ted Bullet and didn't actually stick around until O/D Saxon if memory serves.

To change tack slightly, I didn't actually know about Biff playing bass on Rock the Nations but it didn't completely surprise me because I'm sure I read somewhere that Biff was originally a bass player who started to sing for pre-Saxon SoB in the 70s just because the band already had a bass player (Dawson) and yet couldn't find a singer. Anyone know if this is true?

If he did get into the job like that then he was certainly a very lucky find!

 

[mmurnau]

Oh yeah, Pax, I dug that email out that I sent to the bikers. It read as follows:

----- Original Message ----- From: "Brett Bligh" <address deleted>
To: <admin@celticwarriors.org>
Cc: <adress deleted>
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 6:57 PM
Subject: 11th Birthday Bash Lineup



> Hi there,
>
> I notice on the line-up for your 11th Birthday Bash
> (http://www.gs4.co.uk/celticwarriors/home/index.html) it says Saxon are
> playing, and yet the website link is for Oliver/Dawson Saxon, an entirely
> different band.
>
> Could you please confirm which band is actually playing at your event?
>
> If it is Saxon playing then the website link should point to
> www.saxon747.com
>
> If it is, in fact, Oliver/Dawson Saxon playing then the band logo displayed
> on your site needs to be modified. I believe that O/D Saxon are the subject
> of court judgements banning them from the use of the Saxon logo altogether;
> their own alternative logo can be found on their website at
> www.oliver-dawson-saxon.com
>
> I hope this matter can be resolved without too much trouble. This kind of
> thing has caused a lot of fuss in the past and doesn't benefit either band.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Brett Bligh
>

If anything like this ever happens again (unfortunately I think its probably quite likely) it might be worthwhile several of us sending emails like this. Its not like we're asking them to ban the band from playing, we just want them to advertise in a way that's not misleading as to which band it is!

This is what I call the "carrot and stick" approach. Make a fuss if O/D continue what they're doing, but offer to actually go to their gigs and support them if they kick the bad habits.

Come to think of it, I'm sure I saw a donkey called Dobby when I was last in Blackpool