One for Satori

i see a problem here.

the problems being mentioned, such as wars, corruptions, etc. are all being ascribed to Christianity. this is in error. CHRISTIANITY is a set of beliefs; a faith in God, with nothing inherently wrong with them. Used correctly, there is nothing about Christianity that should mess up people's lives, and besides which, it can lead to all the benefits originally mentioned, such as charity and moral guidance, even when it's countersurvival.

(As an example, if our instinct gave us all our moral guidance, then our ethos would be comprised of wanton theivery, casual violence, impregnating every woman in sight, etc)

everything wrong with "Christianity" can be attributed to it's members (Someone else has mentioned that in this thread: i can't remember who). People are fallible creatures, just as Javert took what he thought to be right.... to be the law.... and warped it.
 
Originally posted by Lina
What I mean is, the morals that we hand-pick out of the bible as those we should ascribe to change over time as a society's morals change, irregardless of religion. I mean, look at the (what we would now call) barbaric practices of killing people for allegedly being heretics, etc. The ones doing the killing were the most "religious" of all. And we've all seen gangsta rappers thank god first when they win their grammys.

Morality has nothing to do with religion. Only the simple-minded think so. And because most people are simple-minded, this rationale for religion is rarely questioned.

I bow to your insightfulness.

Satori ;)
 
Considering the entire time Christianity (or religion) has been in existence, I would say the effect is a neutral one.

The effect has more to do with humans interpretation of religion - not the religion itself. Religion is a set of guidelines to live by, a teaching of morals, a guide to a supposed better path of living. It's us (humans) who inevitably screw things up.

It's humans who enter into war, whether its about a tract of land, a show of power, or over religious beliefs. It's humans who kill humans, humans create technology, humans make the laws others live by. Religion is a piece of the world we all manipulate.

Personally, I don't need religion in order to be a good person. But who's to say that what I've been taught hasn't actually come from religious beliefs, either directly or indirectly. For instance - discussions about how bands sound like other bands. We listen to music every day, so it's pretty hard not to be influenced by other music when making your own. It's no different with the passing of time and religion. It has been inter-mingled with everyday life.

Everything is connected in some way, and I'm not saying this from a pyramid viewpoint of it all pointing to God. It's like a puzzle - you need all pieces to make a whole. I feel religion is just one piece of a puzzle that makes our world whole.

Hopefully I've made my point without rambling.
 
Those 'Christians' who have done the things that people find offensive and associate negatively with Christianity aren't really Christians and don't understand what it means to be a Christian. Those people are as much Christian as Britney Spears is a 'musician'. Don't let persons masquerading as Christians mislead you into thinking that they are representative of Christianity or what it means to be a Christian. Christianity in itself is nothing more than ideas, but it is grossly misrepresented by many who claim to act in its name. To go back to my musician analogy, show an outsider with a complete lack of exposure a broad view of the current state of music in the world. They are going to see a whole lot of NSyncs and a very few, quiet, barely noticable Opeths. So what conclusions would they draw from this about music in general, even though 'music' is a totally passive framework of ideas?
 
That's right. I feel that laws work very very well at keeping people in line and that they don't need fear of godly vengence necessarily. posted by satori.

Of course we need laws. I think about everyone agrees to that. Christians believe that we needs laws, and a government, becouse God commands us to obey the government, or the king, or whoever that is over us. But if the government tells you to do something wrong, people shouldn't do it. Or christians, shouldn't do it if it gets in the way of God's law. The reason we should obey the government in most ways, is say, if we don't pay taxes becouse we think that the government over taxes us, then they will throw us in jail. And who will take care of our families? Thats just one reason that people need to obey the government, even when the government goes overboard. I hope I kept to the subject and didn't talk just about christianity, but hey I'm a christian, and so I do give my view in areas, and I do give true facts, just likve most of us here do. We all give our thoughts and ideas. We should only correct each other if we know for certain that the person is wrong.
 
It's hard to tell without seeing what the world would be like without Christianity, but from a neutral standpoint I think it's helped. Think of all the people that would hurt people/hurt civilzation if they didn't believe they would be punished eternally for their actions. It is like a law people have a huge incentive to follow, even though it did contribute to destruction of ancient artifacts and a lot of bloodshed, it PROBABLY kept more people in line than the people it rawled(sp?) up.
 
What about those priests you always hear about who have commited sex crimes? Would this not be because christianity unreasonably squashed a natural survival instinct (ie sex)? (survival of species, not of individual).. If these people were able to reproduce, like the rest of us are allowed, im sure most wouldnt have resorted to rape.

And for those saying that "chistianity isnt bad, its the people who are bad". Well i personally believe that it is christianity which has mislead these ppl, even if these people have misunderstood what christianity is about. i think it is christianity's fault for giving some aparrent firm beliefs and then having this stupid bible which can be interpreted to say anything.
I mean i rarely find two christians with the same beliefs, they usually interperet the bible to support the way they think it should be. I think the people who go to war in the name of god do truly believe they are goin to war in the name of god, and it is christianity which causes this belief.

Im not saying christianity is all bad, im just throwing some ideas in to the discussion.
 
YaYo, i'm afraid that the celibacy of the ordained is specific to Catholicism and a few knockoffs, not Christian religions in general. There is nothing in the Bible that forbids ordained ministers from having wives or sexual relations. That rule is just a (fanfare) misinterpretation by humans.

secondly, i find your rebuttal to "it's not the religion, it's the people piont" a little confusing. in actuality, the Bible is quite clear in what it says, and there are many denominations that practice exactly what the Bible says, and not try to interpret it in different ways.

this analogy isn't very good, but if someone read a 30-year old encyclopedia and then started repeating the out-of-date information, even though it was no longer correct, would it be the encyclopedia's fault for being old? or the person's fault for not realizing that their source was inaccurate?
 
you know what...... christianity wasnt an influence to the laws we had today........ the laws we have today make sense totally.... eventually no matter what we would have made them... why? becuase people dont like when stuff gets stolen... or when they die...... when you dont like something that someone does, you do something about it, its human instinct....

And i have something better then christianity
Have you ever heard of the EYE FOR AN EYE law????
booo ya!
 
metalmancpa - your attempt to distinguish between the acts of religion and humanity are meaningless in that religion is a creation of and exists within humanity. Animals aren't religious (well, or so I'd think we can assume). The matter that makes up the earth and everything on it isn't religious - only our human consciousnesses are. You raise valid points that the non-religious may be inadvertantly influenced by exposure to religion, but I'm going to restate Satori's argument that most of these beliefs are present within people inherently. Do the Ten Commandments really need to exist for anyone to know that killing is wrong, or is that an "moral instinct" we need not be told? Humans can come up with this stuff on their own... how old is Hammurabi's Code? (not that it fits today's moral standards exactly - but, hey! It was a start!)

Anyways, for the positivity/negativity of Christianity's impact on the world, let's look at this from a different and admittedly more specific/less significant historical perspective.

The Ancient Greeks were a pretty damn evolved people for their time. They had figured out democracy (to some degree), had advanced art to degrees some still consider unsurpassed today, their knowledge of science allowed them to create amazing architecture and provided the groundwork for modern math and science. They were rolling along just fine... until the Romans kicked their asses and pretty much took their culture. However, this allowed the spread of these concepts through the large empire.

...then, Christianity came along, the Roman Empire fell apart, and all "heretic" art and ideas were scrapped, seeked out and destroyed, neglected, and all of the enlightened goodness of the Classical era was lost and nobody bothered to try to progress to that level until the Renaissance, 1500 or so years later. The time in between was filled with plague, war, poverty, servitude, gross class distinctions, hell, they called it "The Dark Ages" for a reason. Oddly enough, when the renaissance did occur, people began openly questioning Christianity, turing towards atheism, and openly disputing what's written in "the book" at about that time.

Look at this example. I completely step out of what I know to be fact here, and go on some guesses and assumptions - but I find it interesting, and it goes to the point, so...

I seem to recall someone here (I think it was here on the forum) pointing out something interesting. We're all familair with Atlas - the greek god punished by Zeus by being forced to hold the world atop his shoulders? Well, is it my imagination, or are there statues of him that were carved back in Ancient times? I ask this because the world that Atlas holds is round. This would seem to indicate that the Ancient Greeks KNEW the world was round, again, 1500 or so years before the Christians bothered to figure it out. Huh.

Finally, I also feel that of the people I know, certain irreligious people are the most "morally sound", far more so than some devout Christians I also know. I would hypothecize that the reason for this is that religion promotes conformity - thereby essentially putting boundaries on how moral or not people, on average, will be (heh... now we're discussing morality like it's a numeric variable in a role-playing game: "my athiest friend has intelligence 23 and morality 27 while my christian friend only has a morality of 24, even though he's christian..."). Not following this conformity, irreligious people have the ability to be more or less moral, on average, than that of the religious.

To sum up: Negative, for historical reasons half-outlined above, and because the moral positives attributed to religion would, I agree, exist in most humans without it.
 
i'm afraid that the celibacy of the ordained is specific to Catholicism
ah yes, somewhere in my brain i did know this, but i obviously forgot.
Anyway my point was that christianity/religions can cause people to not live their lives the way they really want to. Which isnt nescasarily a bad thing, but in some cases it leads to frustration, and when they turn away from religion they turn away from basic morals as well (without the right guidance). Its a small point that probably doesnt come into play when talking about chrisitianity's overall goodness/badness. I guess nobody denies that religion has its bad effects tho.

secondly, i find your rebuttal to "it's not the religion, it's the people piont" a little confusing. in actuality, the Bible is quite clear in what it says, and there are many denominations that practice exactly what the Bible says, and not try to interpret it in different ways.
and yeh i get your point on the bible, but i personally dont think the bible is so clear. When studying for years and years it probably is, but to the 'casual' christian there are many quotes and passages which can be used to support almost anything. Whether this is the fault of people in general, or of christianity itself, i dont know. But i do think that christianity has to take some of the blame. Whether intended or not, religion has been the driving force behind some wars. Do u blame the people for misinterpereting the religion, or the religion for being so easy to misinterperet?

this could go round forever, and whether u can can blame christianity, or whether u blame people is always goin to be a tough point to decide on. I certainly dont know which is to blame.
 
Good point man. Ya I mean, are christians supposed to be perfect? I think that priest should get married, becouse the bible says be fruitful and multiply, and commands to have a life partner.
But thats the christians side. I guess the other side is everyone who is not a christian, which are the athiest. and I dont really know all of their beliefs. Should they have beliefes? Should their beliefs be similar? I guess considering that they are in the same catagory. I mean when someone ask you waht your beliefs are , say about the world or whatever, or what you believe in, you need to tell them something. So like they will understand where you are coming from. It may seem like people that have religions are say, on a leash, or they might look like robots or whatever, just becouse they seem like they are slaves to God, or to their religion, but I look at athiest as slaves to themselves, they can be the smartest people and the nicest and you name it. But I do wish they would look at both sides. And I know people have been to church, that dosn't mean a lot ok. I mean you dont just go to church and say, well that didnt affect me. You need to know why you go to church, what the church believes in, what your religiong says, believe in it, if it makes any since. Then i think you would know why people go to church, I think church is only for christians, i dont think that non christians should be there, becouse they dont know exactly waht goes on, and if people are there to worship God, how can a non christian worship God. BUt if athiest want to know both sides, of the story, then all they have to do is ask someone, or pick up a bible. not just go to church or turn it to that christian channel on tv. A lot of things out there are false christianity. Thats why people say, how can I be a christian, when this lady on tv is sitting in a gold chair with big purpler hair and fake lips. I as a christian, look at somethin like that and try to use the wisdom or logic that i have, to see whats wrong with it. But everyone should do that. But you have to ask yourself, why do I do good things, why do i do good things? How will it help me, or what will i get from it? I dont look at doing good things as, waht will I get from it, i think thats selfish. I think i should do good things becouse God commands me too. Now are you going to say, Josh your religion sucks becouse you are doing good things. I do want eternal life, not eternal death. Eternal death is horrible. It is very serrious. You dont just do good things to go to heaven. THe bible says, by faith we are saved, not by works. We do good works becouse God commands us. I don't know why athiest do good works. But im glad they do if they do. Sorry if i talked to much about christianity. Somone on this board has to have another side hehe.
 
Originally posted by Satori


Perhaps they would, however, people are much easier to lead into war when they think "god" is on their side. This is why I feel most wars involve religion. While I'm sure that wars would've still occured without religion, I don't think they would've been as frequent or involved as many people following in blind subserviance to their particular dictator. If people actually choose to fight/die for a cause then that's cool and I don't have a problem with it, but it's quite uncool to lie to them about it and have them fight because of their fears/desires.

Satori

90% infact :)
 
I'll state this is again:

"There is not a think which is good or bad but thinking makes it so." - Shakespeare

Religion is a TOOL. Tools are neither good or bad, it's all in the way they are used. Is a hammer a good or bad thing? Neither, exactly. Religion is also neither good or bad, it's all in the way it is used.

So how has religion been used? Let's see... leaders used religion to dominate, oppress, and exploit the huddled masses (NO one disputes this). By playing on people's deepest desires and worst fears, they got them to pay taxes (god says: "pay your taxes"), fight in wars, kill, die, submit to all sorts of mindless crap (ie. don't jerk off, don't eat on this day (btw, fasting is a form of brainwashing), don't eat this or that animal, don't work on a certain day, don't be gay, etc.). People are so incredibly gullable, it's sad really. It's not shocking however, if Hitler could convince a nation of people that jewish torture/genocide was a good idea (and he was so good at convincing people of this that there are still nazi's to this day) then it's really no surprise that the creators of religion could convince the huddle masses of all sorts of irrational and illogical bullshit. People are gullable, we know this from our own history, and the only ones who don't think that they themselves are gullable are the most gullable ones of all who think that they are too smart to be duped.

People love to play follow the leader, but I believe LYING to them and using their own fears and desires to control them from the inside out is simply inexcusable.

How has been religion been used? It's been used to exploit people on the deepest level. Is that a "good" thing? That depends entirely on which side of the fence you are on. Some people think that humans are so inherently evil/stupid that they NEED to be lied to and exploited for their own good cuz they couldn't possibly get by in life without some crooked (but seemingly well-meaning) human telling them what and how to think and behave. I think that's bullshit. I firmly believe that humans are more than capable of living their lives without having to resort to some rhetorical bullshit story to tell them what's what. Why can't people just trust THEMSELVES? Why can't they simply live their lives by their own ideas? Why must politicians mess with their minds at the abosolute deepest level? It's sick. I think that people should be FREE to make up their own minds about things. If I want to eat pig or shove shiney metal objects up my ass then that's MY business and my choice, and no one should use my fears/desires to rule me in that regard.

Why am I anti-religion? Because I'm anti-exploitation and I'm very pro-freedom.

Religion has been used to take away people's personal freedoms, even the freedom to think for themselves. Is that a bad thing? How could it NOT be?

Religion is a tool and tools are neither good or bad, it's all in the way they are employed. Religion has been used to exploit people. That is bad. Also, lying to people is just wrong, no matter what the result. muwahhhah

Satori
 
Originally posted by metalmancpa
The effect has more to do with humans interpretation of religion - not the religion itself. Religion is a set of guidelines to live by, a teaching of morals, a guide to a supposed better path of living. It's us (humans) who inevitably screw things up.

Religion is also politics and nationalism. It's also fear and desire. It's also punishment and reward. Religion is the personification of just about every aspect of humanistic emotion and tendency to think in an egocentric and hierarchial (ie. primative) manner.

It's humans who enter into war, whether its about a tract of land, a show of power, or over religious beliefs. It's humans who kill humans, humans create technology, humans make the laws others live by. Religion is a piece of the world we all manipulate.

Very true. People (leaders) also use religion as a tool to manipulate the simple masses as well.

Religion is a propoganda machine used to fuck people and rule them from the inside out. It's a pack of horrible and scary lies, not so unlike the political platforms of today's more whacked politicians in 3rd world countries who will say and do whatever it takes to win the favour and complete devotion of their constituents.

Religion itself is not necessarily evil (aside from the fact that it really is a load of crap, but then, there are lots of works of fiction in the world so this does not make it evil just cuz it's untruthful). It's all in the manner in which is is used, and why it is used.

People are generally greedy bastards and very very power hungry. The more power a person gets, the more they want (the feeding of desires increases the magnitude of the desires, power = desire for more power). It's these greedy and power hungry people who created and used religion to their advantage. Are we so completely blind as to assume for ONE second that their motives were anything but self-serving? I don't think anyone among is mindless enough to make that assertion.

Therefore, why was religion created and used to rule people? For the personal gain of the very few who were in a position to benefit from it's growth, after all, nothing else works as well as religion when it comes to brainwashing people into believing whatever the hell they wanted the masses to believe. And if there was a war, the people would line up to be the first to kill or die for their beliefs. What about tax time? God insists we be good little tax payers and support the gov't. Geesh. Think of it this way, religion works so well at twisting peoples minds into complete fear/submission that the leaders of the time had no reason not to use it for that purpose. I'm just sorry so many people fell victim to this propoganda, and I'm absolutely horrified that they still are in modern societies - long after our real politicians have decided that mythology has absolutely no place in our modern democracy. Such is the power of belief and tradition, and just like in the case of evolution, it takes many generations to get past ancient ideas.

Satori
 
i appolgise if i go over anything anyone one else brought up a long time ago but i've just starting using this board and don't have time to read all the previous posts...anyway

as i see it (i'm an atheist btw) whether christianity had a good or bad effect overall isn't really important...without christianity there would be another relgion in its place...i cannot think of a single culture which didn't have a relgion of some sorts...but the people would still be the same...many things good and bad have been done in the name of christianity...war and pursecution or developments in art, music, architecture...but none of them have anything to do with whats written in the bible...the bible, as far as i know, doesn't tell you to crusade against the muslims anymore than it tells you to devote your life to making sculptures or painters of the virgin mary...man chose to do this himself...if the religion was different, then our art, music, architecture would be different, and so to would be our wars and atrocities...if Mr Ed was our god we would have simply devouted our art to Mr Ed instead of Jesus and co...and then delcared war on the followers of Zebbadee...the actions of the christian church has little to do with christianity...man just likes to make large organisation with which he can control others (religious law), take their money (tithes) and so on, and then protect this institutions and their position within by killing people who disagree with them (e.g. catholics and protestants, or scientist and intelectuals)...individual acts of kindness such as charity would probably have taken place anyway, but just have been done in the name of another god...

As for religion keeping ppl in line, it is law that does that for the most part...people are alot more worried about punishment in this world rather than the next...esp. if your given the option to repent...you can tell someone not to steal, but if they've got no other option they'll do it...eternal damnation or not...most societies consider murder, rape, assault, theft etc. to be wrong...christianity just adds other things which are "wrong" having more than one wife, working on a sunday, desiring your neighbours wife and so on...which aren't really 'wrong' at all...

ultimately we'll never know if christianity was good or bad, because we have no way of knowing what would have stood instead...maybe a more enlightened religion, or perhaps a more barbaric one...
 
i mentioned hammurabi's code, and so did hoser, i think it can be the most effective system..... the worst that can happen is maybe some people die innocent (which happens anyway)

lets say i go up to some guy and just shoot him in the arm, and he loses his arm
then in turn i get my arm cut off

i cant think of a better way to stop people from commiting crimes!!!

it sure as hell isnt like christianity though!!
 
I like what George Carlin said "If you read through history, you see God is the leading cause of death."
 
Originally posted by Mr. Black
ultimately we'll never know if christianity was good or bad, because we have no way of knowing what would have stood instead...maybe a more enlightened religion, or perhaps a more barbaric one...

Excellent! All that same shit would've still happened, politicians would've found some other way to blind their constituents to do their bidding for their personal benefit. That's just how the world works, how it has always worked.

I think religion was just an eventuality, as it is too good a tool for people not to use to fuck each other. People are like that. My problem with religion is that it works a little too well and people can never "change their mind" about religion the way they do about politics, once someone is sucked in by a religion there is very little hope of escape cuz their own fears keep them hanging on, no matter how ridiculous or harmful the myth. Religion is simply too good at it's purpose by not allowing for escape from the myth/fear. I don't have too much trouble with brainwashing, we are all brainwashed by propoganda all the time from commericals and shit, but I'd have a huge fucking problem with it if suddenly we started seeing messages like "Drink Pepsi and not Coke or burn in hell". That a'int right. Above all, people should be given the right to CHOOSE, and religion does NOT afford them that choice becauses the consequences are so fucking serious and dire. It's perverse.

The real issue is where do we go from here? Now that we know that religions are all completely full of shit factually and truthfully, do we keep on living this lie or do we stand up to our fears and our oppressors and say enough is enough? Hmm.. food for thought. Everyone knows the choice I have made, and I can assure you all, living according to your own standards, ethics, and ideals is infinitely more rewarding than bowing to some corrupt work of fiction.

Satori
 
Ok boys and girls, it's been a blast but I must leave for a week, I'm going on vacation in Jamaica.

Sorry to leave just when it was getting interesting, hehe. I wish you well in my absense and I assure you all, when I get back I will again do my best to amuse, provoke, mystify, blur, insult, encourage, and basically spout bullshit off the top of my head for entertainment purposes.

muwahahah... ;)

Satori