OT: Bands, venues and pay

I think that in metal, pretty much everything sucks in terms of money! Since the crowd/demographic is smaller, bands don't make as much, IMO anyway. Guarantees for popular metal bands are still relatively low compared to the big acts of yesteryear. So you have a trickle down effect to local/regional or unsigned metal acts...Which means no money!

We've been direct support for what I'd call "big" names in metal (Anthrax, Arch Enemy, God Forbid, LoG, Unearth and a ton more), and it's always varied, but never really that much (mmm, say 150 bucks to play the show). But, we get no stipulations on merch sales and we keep 100% of our merch profits at the venues (which isn't always the case at some).

In Indianapolis, most of the bands in the scene have a staunch "no pay to play" stance and any promoter viewed as a pay to play promoter gets a bad rep pretty quickly. We still have some bands who do pay to play fests (Milwaukee Metal Fest comes to mind), but pay to play has pretty much been ran out of town here, or never really taken off. Most bands just play for free. We have a pretty good all ages venue in which some good nationals come through. For locals, they have a deal set up based on draw. There are no alcohol sales, so door money is the only source of income (aside from sodas, etc.). The more bodies through the door, the more percentage the band makes. At bar venues where we've done well, we get a pretty decent amount. At one bar that's kinda become our "hometown", as the headliner we get ALL the money that goes to the bands and decide among ourselves how much the opening bands get. We usually split it 40/30/30.

Any time we host shows or book our own headlining show, we in effect become the promoters, even at established venues. As such, we always try to treat the out of town bands to a cut first...They drove the farthest, have the most to risk, so we want to compensate them first. So, when we show trade and play their city, hopefully they will reciprocate. At times, we've even taken from our own merch profits and given moeny to bands if the draw didn't generate enough revenue.

Thats what we've been doing here in LA... we're trying to bridge musical scenes with out of town bands and whatnot... that way any band from (city name) can come here, play to a decent sized crowd and more than likely make money off merch sales and we usually pay them AT LEAST gas money and beer, food or whatever... and like you said, hopefully the favor is returned so we dont need these greedy "promoters" dont get to call the shots anymore...

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
 
clubs make ridiculous amounts of money just off beer let alone if they charge at the door (assuming you have fans)). We usually bring a nice crowd around our hometown and its silly to watch us make a club so much money and they have no intent to pay us anything for out troubles.

Fucking music gear and gas ain't cheap these days....

On the pay to play thing (selling tickets) we have a few venues around here like that and I preach to every band how much bullshit it is. I know i have made a small dent along with some others who view my opinion but there is always going to be that shitty band that thinks there going to break big from opening up for a national.....

Glad to see some others standing up for whats right. Makes me feel a little better:kickass:
 
broken81, when the Harpos and I-Rock people would stiff my old band, I we would whip out the kinkos recepits for flyers, and explain about how we handed them ALL out, not just fucking threw em on tables at shows. About that time they started doing pay-to-play stuff (1997).

Now here in Lansing, there is a record/video game store that just opened that has high prices, and limited inventory. So they have shows with young bands where they charge $8 for 6 bands (with a one mic PA) under the guise that it is a punk/hardcore venue. Well, the kids don't/won't pay the prices they set, so the only way they can say open is by having two more shows a week and keeping 70%-90% of the door, meaning that the most a band has even been paid is about $20. Now I'm certainly not greedy, thinking that a local band needs to get band hundreds of dollars per show, but this behavior is complete abuse of the music scene, and will not just burn out the bands that play and and the people who come (what else makes up a music scene??!), but I'm scared that it might catch on.
 
Harpo's is one of the "sell tickets to play" venues...We did it once and we'll never do it again, especially being an out of town band. We didn't know that's how it worked until the first time we played there. Drove 6 hours to find out the system. Played our set, told to go f*ck off and left.

Funny thing is, we were there 2 weeks later on a Jager show...
 
the local metal scene in and around New York (excluding New Jersey) is a disaster. First of all, there are very, very few good bars/venues to play if you are a local act in Manhattan...it is all venues for Indie or regular rock bands. Plus, must of the venues in Manhattan that do have metal bands usually don't pay at all. There are a few that do but its very very rare. Queens and Brooklyn are the same. We played a show out in Long Island, and our band (which lives an hour and a half from Long Island) got paid $30 to play...not too mention, there is a huge over-saturation of dumbed-down metalcore and death metal bands here, so its not even like you are playing shows with cool bands....

my bands approach is that we're taking it as far out of the city as possible, and since we aren't signed, we are just going to suck it up and not get paid. The more shows we play, the more our following grows, and thats all that matters for us right now.
 
lol 30 $? hmm thats actually ok, at my last performance i got soemthing like this
metallic&

made in china :))))
 
hahaha, thats pretty bad...but my band has 5 guys, we drew a good crowd, and so $6 for each band member isn't that much...
 
What about ticket sales? a booking company around me charges $60 for tickets and you make your money by selling them yourselves. You pay to play if your lazy , but if you work hard you can make a few bucks.

i got to play a small bar that never booked metal bands, so i don't know how we got in. My band was a Doom/Blackmetal band and the openers were a melodic death metal band. but we packed the small place and the manager handed us $300, so we split it with the other band. we were shocked as hell, because it was the only time we ever made money.

On another note: The only place for metal bands that had a natural draw, charges $250 for renting the "bar" and $100 for security. so you had to bring in $350 at the door to break even, with no sound or lights! and for a while the promoter used to come in and take the first $50 from the door as his pay. so you had to make $400 plus sound to break even. if you busted you ass like i did. at my last show there, i was left with $40 to pay the 3 opening bands, one of which was was close friends of mine who drove 3 hrs to play the gig.

This all being said, I think the reason pay-for-play exists is because there are so many shitty local bands out there. Bands who drive people away from clubs. People who can't play shouldn't start bands, they need to go back to rock school, learn to shred, and start a band once they've earned their License to Rock. When I first started at guitar, at least I knew I sucked, and I didn't try to start a band until I knew I had gotten some chops under my built.

Amen to that!
I've been doing live sound for years, and out of the 100's of bands i've mixed i can count the good one's on one hand.
 
Ahhh yes i was actually talking about :puke: harpo's mainly....

Everyone around here who is not a shitty band knows its complete bullshit. Ive been told They (harpo's) actually started doing contracts bands had to sign stating they would sell there tickets or pay the money. Which is even more bullshit than before. Back in the day we really wanted to play with a national (mudvayne) so we bought into this ticket thing and sold 100 tickets at 12.00 a piece and we showed up and handed over our money and were so fucking happy to play (we were all like 16-17).

Then the booking guy came out like 15 min later and said were sorry but your not going to be able to play we over booked it...Can you fucking believe that:erk: We handed over 1200.00 which we busted our ass to sell the tickets and did not even get to fucking play. We did get another show but for some shitty ass national band and it just goes to show there willing to take shit 1 step further to fuck bands over more than you think (beware new bands). It's absolutely insane....
 
This all being said, I think the reason pay-for-play exists is because there are so many shitty local bands out there. Bands who drive people away from clubs.
I think there is some level of truth to this however my experience suggests a couple different reasons. First, of all pay to play is used by promoters to cover the guarantee on national tours. Basically they are trying to make a risky business risk-free.
The other reason is that many promoters are to busy/lazy/apathetic to actually listen to demos. In fairness when you are trying to pay the rent the 'door' is more important than the 'art.'
Regardless, I think pay2play is shitty for everyone but the promoter-- the openers who pay, the tours that have 2-5 undesired local bands, the fans that have to sit through shitty and/or poorly matched bills to get to the nationals they want to see.
 
Ahhh yes i was actually talking about :puke: harpo's mainly....

Everyone around here who is not a shitty band knows its complete bullshit. Ive been told They (harpo's) actually started doing contracts bands had to sign stating they would sell there tickets or pay the money. Which is even more bullshit than before. Back in the day we really wanted to play with a national (mudvayne) so we bought into this ticket thing and sold 100 tickets at 12.00 a piece and we showed up and handed over our money and were so fucking happy to play (we were all like 16-17).

Then the booking guy came out like 15 min later and said were sorry but your not going to be able to play we over booked it...Can you fucking believe that:erk: We handed over 1200.00 which we busted our ass to sell the tickets and did not even get to fucking play. We did get another show but for some shitty ass national band and it just goes to show there willing to take shit 1 step further to fuck bands over more than you think (beware new bands). It's absolutely insane....

Holy shit! that sucks! you just reminded me of a venue that screwed my band over. We were booked to open for a Pigface/Bile tour. we got to the venue and unloaded our gear, then Bile's tour manager walks over and asks who we are, and then tells us there is no local opener. We couldn't even find the place's manager to ask "WTF?". The only glimps of the club's mangaer was him yelling at Bile's tour manager saying "you'll never get anywhere talking to me like that" and slammed his office door in the guy's face and wouldn't come out. Bile's tour guy did come over to us and say "sorry you came out, but there's no local opener as per the contract the club signed." That promoter worked for a couple of other venus and scewed even more bands over.
 
Ahhh yes i was actually talking about :puke: harpo's mainly....

Everyone around here who is not a shitty band knows its complete bullshit. Ive been told They (harpo's) actually started doing contracts bands had to sign stating they would sell there tickets or pay the money. Which is even more bullshit than before. Back in the day we really wanted to play with a national (mudvayne) so we bought into this ticket thing and sold 100 tickets at 12.00 a piece and we showed up and handed over our money and were so fucking happy to play (we were all like 16-17).

Then the booking guy came out like 15 min later and said were sorry but your not going to be able to play we over booked it...Can you fucking believe that:erk: We handed over 1200.00 which we busted our ass to sell the tickets and did not even get to fucking play. We did get another show but for some shitty ass national band and it just goes to show there willing to take shit 1 step further to fuck bands over more than you think (beware new bands). It's absolutely insane....


Yeah, Harpo's is completely crazy in their approach to it all. While I think most pay to play stuff is a scam, Harpo's is so blatant it's sickening. When we went there the first time, we played a "battle of the bands" to try for an opening slot on a national show. He ended up giving tix to all the bands that played and then the dude said, "here's some tickets, the more you sell the better your slot will get with nationals"....Handed us 100 tickets and that was it. The dude didn't know any of our names, didn't know our band, nothing. He told us that he needed to recoup costs to pay the headlining nationals, that's why he made local sell tickets...But, you know every bit of it just lined his pockets. After he gave us the tix, we put em up on ebay and sold a few...Made the money and kept it. Never went back to play the "national show", and from what I heard neither did 2 of the other bands. Then, we play a Jager show there a few weeks later on an unrelated tour, dude didn't even know who we were! It was a good f*ck you to the dude...
 
God I hate bar owners/ promoters. Nothing like getting taken for a ride.

And cragslist can go to hell here is an example of a cocksucker that I would gladly tell to go to hell:

http://ithaca.craigslist.org/tlg/310373809.html

Honestly the problem lies with bands, as long as you have shitty dumb fucks undercutting you and willing to pay to play or play for free or whatnot your gonna get fucked.

Oh and I did a "sell tickets" gig one time, NEVER AGAIN. $25 a pop, not a single national act + plethora of garbage shitty ass metal. BOO.
 
The solution to this is simple: stop whining and book the shit yourself.

Get an (abandoned/empty) warehouse thing for free/cheap (you'd be surprised how many landlords will gladly let you use their empty buildings for a small fee): max. $100

Bring an electricity generator if needed (cheap to rent or buy): max. $50

Bring a simple PA for the singer, you will most likely have it in your rehearsal room: $0.

Set up a simple bar/cooling/beervending stand and get your girlfriends to sell beer: costs of drinks up front: $100

Print tickets on your dad's printer, cut, stamp and handnumber them: $10

Get some local record/vinylstore to sponsor a run of 1000 posters (costs $200) that you hang only in important spots, so 100 per concert should be more than enough: $20/per gig or $0 (if sponsored)

Spam local messageboards: $0

Spam local bars and clubs with handmade flyers: $20

Ask huge friends if they would volunteer to be "bouncers-in-case" (meaning that they don't have to stand at the door all the time, but will be ready to break up fights). Metal concerts are notoriously low violence, so nothing big is required.

Make sure you declare the concert to be a "private party" so taxes and other regulations might not apply to you. Entrance is with "invitation only" - which means people HAVE to bring a flyer (which are conveniently lying around by the entrance door :) ...)!

If you do it like that you will end up paying $300 up front for a show. Then you'd only need to either sell:

60 tickets at $5 or 30 tickets $10 to break even. All the beer, merch and door money will be yours.

Done it a lot in the late 90s with my band. We ended up pulling 250-300 people regularly and clubs started to take us very seriously. I even remember playing a club in Cologne and it was so packed that people couldn't get in anymore. The next night Placebo were playing there and it was half empty. These days I wish my gig woulda been empty and my career path had continued like Placebo's ... haha! :)

It is very important to have at least one person who is a) not a stoner/pothead, b) has significant organizational skills and c) is respected by all involved. Otherwise you will fail miserably. If you are always fighting within your band, don't try this ... :)

On the other hand: I can only speak about Germany, but there seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what bands get paid. A national band that fills venues with 200-300 people/night will easily get paid 1500-2000 Euros + hotel/catering/etc. (multiply by 1.2 to get the US$). A band that draws 500, will get paid 3000-5000 + hotel/catering/etc. Even my electro/ebm-project gets paid 500-900 Euro per night + hotel/catering and we don't draw that many people, maybe 250 in countries like Holland when paired with another similarly known band.

I don't know what bands like Arch Enemy and Machine Head get paid, but with the ticket prices and the amount of people they are drawing it should be well in the five figures.

The self-organization route has its pitfalls (more work, possibility of some troubles), but if it is done correctly it will

a) give you the freedom to do whatever you want and play with whoever you want at the time you want

b) if you make profit, it is your profit (always feels good!)

c) underground gigs give you a lot of credibility with fans - most people don't care about a good FOH sound like you and your engineer-friends do.

d) you can do it again and again and again and again.
 
We have one of these little DIY venues here. Plus there is quite a lot of Youth clubs and so on, that would let you play more or less easily. You probably won't get paid but at least you don't have to pay.
The first gig I played with my last band was organized by such a club. We were supposed to sell tickets and we could keep the half of every ticket we sold (2 euros if I remember correctly). We ended up getting 100 euros for our first ever gig (after only rehearsing for ~3 months) by inviting all our friends and it was great fun! :)
Summing up I would still play for free, but I wouldn't pay to play. At least some gas money + free drings/meal should be possible.
 
Some of the most insane gigs I ever did were all ages shows.....and a couple of years later when they're old enough to get in (or sneak in) those kids will come and see you in bars/clubs.

One band I was in started playing every Sunday afternoon for next to nothing in a massive suburban nightclub where they had an all ages event every week during the summer months run by the local youth club. We treated it like a public rehearsal until the crowds starting getting bigger and bigger. Eventually we were pulling an average of 2800 kids every week and the promoter was pretty much forced into shelling out a decent percentage of the door. I bought a new car based on those gigs.