Phase & time alignment

[Jevil]

What is the difference between Time aligning and Phase aligning?



I often have problems to blend 2 mics (or 2 impulses).

I try to align tracks by zooming the wave and matching 2 tracks but it still sounds weird, hollow or like a chorus effect.
I also tweak the DAW's time delay option trying to find the spot where both tracks sounds good together, but no success.

Now, as an example I have a SM57ed track wich doesn't soudn bad, but I want to give it more fatness. I'm trying to blend it with the same amp (FX send) but impulses instead of mic... Voxengo Boogex and Lecab, both have a phase knob for aligning, but I can't make both tracks sound right.
I mean, both tracks sounds good independently but togteher they don't, I'm not able to blend them properly... I fucking hate that chorus effect.

 

[Felix Neumann]

Wowowow the only thing I can do here, is pushing the thread I´m not enough a Wizard to help you with useful informations, Jevo.

 

[Harley Barley]

What is the difference between Time aligning and Phase aligning?

I'm no expert but I think the difference is that time alignment means moving say, the room mic track to the beginning when the close mic track starts. Anybody whos recorded something with a close microphone and a far microphone knows that there will be a short delay on the far microphone, simply because its farther away and takes slightly more time for the sound to hit that microphone.

Phase aligning you would keep that natural delay from the room mic but just make sure the waveform goes up and down in the same places as the other mic just like regular phase but with the natural delay.

Thats what makes sense to me.. i could be wrong

 

[::XeS::]

Yes and no. Time aligning means that but it includes phase aligning at the same time.
At the end, Phase aligning is more important and it should be the only thing to watch....it depends anyway. If I have a mic at 0 cm from the grille and a mic at 20cm from the grill, it's up to yu if you want it time aligned with the closest one. It depends if you want a "room" vibe on it or only a different flavour....in the first case you phase align, in the second maybe you want them time aligned (and phase aligned too).
Let me say that there isn't a rule about phase...you align the phases if you think they sound good aligned but often phase cancellation/coloration generates particular sounds that are good.
It's like drums...I never align anything (only different samples from each other) because I think different times and phases on the different mics give a more description of the space than a mechanic "everything aligned and perfect" situation..expecially OH's and Room mics.

 

[Mago]

If you are doing as you do with one miced track and an impulse then I can tell you my experience:
It only works to a certain point and you can only do so much, I don't know why, but thats what I experienced with out album.
Theres another pair of rhythms underneath the miced tracks through a preamp into impulses, and even after printing and aligning on spot it didnt sound too great, or as good as I wanted it and imagined it to sound.
I ended up having them really low in the mix to give some beef so the bit of phasing wasn't audible anymore.
The phasing wasn't as bad as it would have been with bad mic placement, but it still was annoying if it was too loud.
It still helped the sound to an extend I think though.

edit: cleaned the post cause I shouldn't try to type complicated stuff while beeing on meds lol

 

[Jevil]

I ended up having them really low in the mix to give some beef so the bit of phasing wasnt audible anymore.

That is what I did a couple of years ago, cause it seems there's no way to align mic and impulses to sound ok at the same levels.

 

[Kohugaly]

aaah... the difference between time and phase.... you need to think more from the physical point of view.

Imagine you have a single string tensed vertically and two mics in horizontal level pointing at it. one directed west-east and the another nord-south (just a example for easy imagining) so their axes are 90 degrees shifted. if ou plug the string the string will move straight to one mic but side to side from the view of the second mic. they are 90 degrees out of phase. if you change the tone of the string the situation will be the same. they are still 90 degrees out of phase.
SO PHASE IS TIME INDEPENDENT.

now imagine you have the same string but the mics are at the same axis in different distances. you plug the string and the sound arives to the mics at the different time. the waves are time shifted and their shift can be expressed as a phase shift (phase shift =time shift / period of the sound). but if you change the tone of the string the expression in phase shift will change(because period changes).
SO TIME SHIFT CAUSES IRREGULAR(sound period caused) PHASE SHIFTS

anyway...i have no idea how to solve phase shift problems because, unlike time shift problems, time shift solves it only for one certain frequency.

 

[Uros]

For phase aligning you could try these out:

http://www.meldaproduction.com/mautoalign/
http://www.soundradix.com/

 

[amarshism]

Whilst aligning the the phase you may not be accounting for the delay from the plugin hosting the impulse?