Production Values

[suislidE]

Yea you guys pretty much covered the compression description. It just balances volumes when playing. I cant tell that it gives me any more sustain when i use it.. maybe its just very minute. They say it does, so its probably barely noticable. The actual compression is more noticable to me when playing with a clean tone, all the notes seem to sound very full, but it loses some of its dynamics that clean tones have naturally.

I recently got megadeths evolver tape, which shows their making of the album "Youthanasia" (which had some really cool songs, awesome guitar tone). It tought me a bit about all the steps you go through making a record. The engineering i think its mostly the part about fixing problems, hooking up everything correctly, configuring mics, and just making sure everything sounds right when you record. Basically all the preparation that is done that you dont see. Production is basically what the guy recording everything does... i mean steven wilson was the producer of D1 and 2, so if you watched the L DVD you should know. Umm.. mastering is panning, doing the levels, compression, equalization, and all the little things that juice up the album.

I think thats kind of it.. ill add if i forgot somthing. Im no expert, its just my view on everything.

 

[[KOTNO]Narrot]

The actual compression is more noticable to me when playing with a clean tone, all the notes seem to sound very full, but it loses some of its dynamics that clean tones have naturally.


>> so the MAYH clean sound would be rather uncomprassed after that discription, right?

 

[suislidE]

Hmm.. its kind of hard for me to tell. I mean when i listen to myself play with it i can tell, but it really depends on how good of a compressor you use. Sometimes its really obvious cause it changes the guitars sound, and sometimes its not. (sometimes it makes it worse) I honestly dont know lol.

 

[[KOTNO]Narrot]

i am asking about the MAYH clean tone cause i think it is the best they ever had. i am not into fender guitars generally but MAYH is really convincing...

 

[ATARI]

i am asking about the MAYH clean tone cause i think it is the best they ever had. i am not into fender guitars generally but MAYH is really convincing...

Really? MAYH is probably the worst production of all of them.

BWP is the best, and Damnation being second.

 

[suislidE]

Atari i dont understand how you could conjure the opinion of saying MAYH has the worst production.. its very obvious that orchid and morningrise hold that crown.

 

[JoeVice]

The actual compression is more noticable to me when playing with a clean tone, all the notes seem to sound very full, but it loses some of its dynamics that clean tones have naturally.


>> so the MAYH clean sound would be rather uncomprassed after that discription, right?

that is beyond true...using compression on a class a clean amp such as a vox ac-30 would be dumb. class a amps' tubes are always running hot...the signal is always passing through them. with a class a/b amp, there is a slight delay when you play because the tubes have to "turn on". it is noticable when comparing the two amps. (something about a 360 degree signal path in the circuitry vs. a class a/b amp with 180 degrees push pull...don't know how that works)....anyway....this provides an extremely punchy, touch sensitive, and squishy tone....that still has a compressed feel to it...one of a kind feel. i have a laney vc-30 (class a)...when i have the volume on 7...i can pick lightly and one could hear a pin drop over it....but it still has that compressed and full sustain....then when i dig in and hit it hard...the thing will knock me on my ass...

wow, i just completely changed the subject so i could have a chance to act smart and brag about my amp....peace.

 

[Rose Immortal]

i am not into fender guitars generally but MAYH is really convincing...

I know you don't care for them so much--but the Fender Strat happens to be my absolute favorite and I actually think this may be one of the reasons MAYH is one of my 2 favorite albums. The way the Strat sounds in "Epilogue" brings it eerily close to Pink Floyd or something...which for a fan of 70s prog is a real treat.

 

[MasterOLightning]

Boo for the Still Life production. Show me where the cool bass parts are on that album? I can't hear much bass on that or on MAYH. At least it's not well defined on MAYH. MR has great bass work and production. I would love to hear Opeth remaster/rerecord MAYH. I think if they used the BWP style of production, and brought out the bass a little more it would be awesome.

 

[deliverance]

^ as we discussed in another thread about last month, remastering or re-recording any album would totally deface what they created (IMO). when they recorded each cd, with however the production sounds, that's the way it was meant to sound, and should remain. it's not like it sounds like a basement demo, ya know? i just really think it would destroy any of their albums if they were messed with in attempt to make it sound as clean as BWP. the production also carries the emotion and atmosphere of the album. if MAYH was reproduced to sound like BWP..it wouldn't be MAYH at all, anymore.

 

[Protected Witness]

The actual compression is more noticable to me when playing with a clean tone, all the notes seem to sound very full, but it loses some of its dynamics that clean tones have naturally.


>> so the MAYH clean sound would be rather uncomprassed after that discription, right?

No, no, no....

People's description of how compression works is right. When compressing a mixdown though, you want to apply a different sort of logic.

The best sort of compression (I have found) when mastering is whatever is the most subtle, meaning getting the levels even without making it sound completely obvious that it is compressed.

For instance, you may notice that songs you hear on FM radio are usually very compressed. A quiet part of a song or even a fadeout can be brought up to the normal level of the rest of the music. I'm not exactly sure the exact motive of why this is done, but it certainly makes it sound different from the original mix on the album, and is my idea of "bad (obvious)compression."

As far as any Opeth album, I'm sure that the mixes were all compressed, but subtle enough to make it sound "full," and not "compressed."

If you are scratching your head over this, next time you are playing with a WAV editor, see if it has compression options (Cool Edit calls it Dynamics Processing). Farting around with this may give you a better idea of what is being described here. Be forewarned that making a "subtle" sounding compression is an art in itself, and can take alot of playing around, particularly if you don't know what you are looking for.

---

My favorite production on an Opeth album would be Blackwater Park or Deliverance/Damnation, even though Deliverance is supposed to be recorded all fucked up. Props to Andy Sneap for making a nice sounding album out of a wacky recording.

The old Unisound records have some appeal to me (song and productionwise)as well, they are definetly alot more analog sounding than the other albums. Still Life is one of my favorite albums songwise, production wise however the mix gets sorta muddy in some places (they get a little crazy with the overdubs on that album).

 

[JoeVice]

the clean guitar sound itself is not compressed on mayh....as in the playing itself...not the mix.

 

[[KOTNO]Narrot]

lots of information here. very nice (remembering that this is the opeth board )

joevice: would you mind explaining what a class a/b amp is? i heard about class a amps tho.

rose immortal: ha, i care for guitar talk . do you or anybody else know what guitar was used for the solo stuff in shine on you crazy diamond part I ? i love the sound. i always thought it was a strat but i am not sure. (unbelievable great song and my fave non-metal album btw)

mr. niel:
<<For instance, you may notice that songs you hear on FM radio are usually very compressed.
>> i appreciate your explanations but i think it would help more (also to other ppl reading this) if you were choosing examples from metla bands since i even dont know what FM radio is.

<<The best sort of compression (I have found) when mastering is whatever is the most subtle
>> so what is the difference between pre-amplifying compression and post-amplifying (mastering) compression soundwise?

<<If you are scratching your head over this, next time you are playing with a WAV editor, see if it has compression options (Cool Edit calls it Dynamics Processing).
>> great. i will see if i can find a waveditor including a compressor.

 

[JoeVice]

lots of information here. very nice (remembering that this is the opeth board )

joevice: would you mind explaining what a class a/b amp is? i heard about class a amps tho.

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Amphitheatre/1405/ClassA.html

 

[[KOTNO]Narrot]

thx!


<<That means that the output tube on a class A amp does not have an adjustable bias. This type of bias enables the current to always flow in the tube, which enables the amp to always be "on."

>> so it will be much easier to change tubes on a class A amp than on a a/b amp...

i am thinking about getting a new amp (still owning some real cheap crate) but i dont know much about all that tube technology. i try to learn about it tho...

 

[Rose Immortal]

rose immortal: ha, i care for guitar talk . do you or anybody else know what guitar was used for the solo stuff in shine on you crazy diamond part I ? i love the sound. i always thought it was a strat but i am not sure. (unbelievable great song and my fave non-metal album btw)

Definitely an excellent album and song.

I can't vouch for the studio recording at the moment, but in live performances I'm almost 100% sure that a Strat is used for the opening of Shine On (at least, that's what I believe I saw on the PULSE video).

I can almost certainly get the definitive answer for the studio recording later tonight, if not sooner.

 

[deliverance]

^ i just received my pink floyd live in pompei directors cut dvd.

they play in pompei, in this ancient theater, with NO audience..it's badass. it also has interviews and shit with adrian, the director.

agreed on Wish you were Here being an amazing album, probably my favorite.

 

[Rose Immortal]

The Director's Cut is good for the extra interviews--but let's just say it's a good thing they put the "original" version on there too. Some of that computer animation on the new version is absolutely horrible (like that statue morphing into David Gilmour's face, and that stupid space stuff...ugh...).

While WYWH is extremely good, I actually like Meddle the best of PF's albums.

 

[suislidE]

Nar if you want a good distortion amp, class a is not the option you should travel. If you rely on clean tones alot, then go ahead because it will sound great. But class A amps are not known for its heavy distortion.. and i dont think pedals will make up enough for it. All of the amps you hear about like marshalls and the laneys opeth uses (along with mesa triple/double rectifiers, peavey 5150s, etc etc) are Class A/B. Just look for an amp with versatility in its distortion tones and clean tones. Thats why i want a laney so bad.. just have to wait.

In response to that part about changing tubes, i see no advantage having a class a amp... that statement doesnt make any sense, but maybe there was something in that link i dunno.

 

[JoeVice]

Nar if you want a good distortion amp, class a is not the option you should travel. If you rely on clean tones alot, then go ahead because it will sound great. But class A amps are not known for its heavy distortion.. and i dont think pedals will make up enough for it. All of the amps you hear about like marshalls and the laneys opeth uses (along with mesa triple/double rectifiers, peavey 5150s, etc etc) are Class A/B. Just look for an amp with versatility in its distortion tones and clean tones. Thats why i want a laney so bad.. just have to wait.

In response to that part about changing tubes, i see no advantage having a class a amp... that statement doesnt make any sense, but maybe there was something in that link i dunno.

well, when i turn up my vc-30 to 8, crank it through a 4x12, and run a tubescreamer in front of it...it crunches my old marshall into the dirt....seriously.....

and as far as changing tubes...it does make it easier...something about it being "cathode based" (usually only with el84s)...no biasing is needed...so you just take the old tubes out, and put the new ones in. with most other amps, re-biasing is needed...which might require a good tech.

my new theory on amps now...is find the sweetest sounding amp possible...it is easy to make a sweet amp sound nasty...but it is impossible to make a nasty amp sound sweet.

but carrot, don't let class a or a/b amps make the decision for you...just buy what you think sounds good...solid state, tube, digital...whatever.