Programming vs. MIDI Libraries

[HeadCrusher]

Hey guys,

quick question: Do you prefer programming your own drum tracks or do you just stitch em together using ready-made MIDI libraries (like the ones from Toontrack - don't really know if anybody else sells any)?

For me it's programming all the way. While the grooves that come with EZdrummer etc. may sound very realistic they never really fit the occasion for me so far. I really like syncing my kick/snare to the groove of the riff and that just can be pre-recorded unless someone knew my riffs in advance. Also the fills from these libraries are too "sophisticated" for my taste. From everything I've heard there was almost never anything I'd have heard on an actual record before. However I only have EZdrummer, Rock Solid and Superior 2.0 so I don't know about any other libraries that might be useful to others.

Just wondering how you guys do it.

 

[Sethis]

It depends. Do you want to write some music or do you want to quickly jam over something?

 

[schismatic]

You'll always have a drumbeat in my head I've found, so libraries of MIDI never seem to fit the bill as they always have a slight difference that doesn't feel right. I actually purchased a small electronic kit and learnt how to play drums to an ok standard to get my grooves in via MIDI quickly..........best choice I've ever made with respect to creativity and workflow. Plus you get to understand how a drummer think and you program better as a results. It's win win - better kit and learning.

 

[Soul Forlorn]

I do both. Most of the time I'll use a loop from a Toontrack MIDI library and then modify it to fit my riff. Very rarely do I not modify it at all...except for fills. I suck at writing good drum fills so it's great to have some midi available for them.

I generally use the Library of the Extreme midi pack. It's really good. I also use the grooves that come with Drumkit from Hell (there's tons of them and it's worth buying just for the grooves). I have Metal Machine and Metalheads as well but I don't find the grooves that come with them very useful (they're mainly just chopped up songs).

Sometimes the midi grooves can be useful for inspiration too.

 

[Clockwork]

Both I guess, I usually write an entire drum part and then pick out the weakest parts (since I'm not a good drummer) and might throw in some midi grooves for 5 or 10% of the song.

Then I send it to an actual drummer and have them fix it all haha.

 

[Nimvi]

I actually purchased a small electronic kit and learnt how to play drums to an ok standard to get my grooves in via MIDI quickly..........best choice I've ever made with respect to creativity and workflow. Plus you get to understand how a drummer think and you program better as a results. It's win win - better kit and learning.

That's how I do it too and I don't regret it. Always nice to learn something new while having fun.

 

[HOFX]

You'll always have a drumbeat in my head I've found, so libraries of MIDI never seem to fit the bill as they always have a slight difference that doesn't feel right. I actually purchased a small electronic kit and learnt how to play drums to an ok standard to get my grooves in via MIDI quickly..........best choice I've ever made with respect to creativity and workflow. Plus you get to understand how a drummer think and you program better as a results. It's win win - better kit and learning.

Not to hi-jack the thread, but what e-kit do you have? The "cheap and quick" part got me interested. I use the same approach, but went for a Drum Kat - worst musical purchase I've ever made, useless, unreliable piece of shit.

 

[HeadCrusher]

Yeah, i guess a MIDI kit would be nice. But I usually just hammer in kick/snare according to the riff that I write the drum part for on my MIDI keyboard, then quantize and edit velocities by hand and add cymbals/fills.

I like to think that I'm fairly good at programming drums. Actually I'm pretty confident that I am. I learned a lot by listening really closely to the drumparts of any kind of music. Eventually you'll figure out how beats and fills are constructed. "Playing it back" slower than original just in your head also helps. Might even work with slowing down an mp3 or wav. Never tried that though. As for velocities and quantization I just went back and forth until I found what worked. Takes some time…
How did you guys learn to program?

I heard that the DFH grooves are supposed to be good. Maybe I'll get it if the put it on sale during Metal Month, who knows.
Can anybody post a song they made using the Library of the Extreme? From the clips on the Toontrack website it sound like just another library that would never ever fit your song.

 

[Machinated]

the best way is to definitely start with a MIDI loop and edit. even if you're just lifting the cymbals/hi hats its going to be better than pencilling from scratch.

 

[HeadCrusher]

Do you think it's because one can't think of a good groove or because of the realism?

I think the hardest part is the "un-quantizing". Velocities aren't all that hard to get right.

 

[Daybreak]

I have never used a single MIDI loop, for that is. Checked some out when I had EZDrummer, but I kind of prefer to just program it myself. I actually enjoy writing drum parts, so that may be a big difference from many of you here. Guitar being my main instrument, I also play some drums, so when I write music, I always have "the big picture" in my head, I never visualize just a guitar riff, but rather the whole thing with guitar, bass and drums. So dropping some MIDI loops in just doesn't make sense, for me.

I do, however, see why people would want it.

 

[HeadCrusher]

See, your first paragraph is exactly how I see/do it and it's also the reason why I don't quite understand why people would want MIDI grooves.

 

[HeadCrusher]

For everybody struggling with programming realistic sound drums this might be relevant.

 

[Machinated]

i used to do it all by hand and was fairly happy but finding and tweaking a similar loop is ALWAYS better and quicker. would love someone to prove me wrong. sure its possible to program something similar with a lot of work but why not just use something that a drummer has actually played? a lot of effort to get the slight groove swings as good as a drummer will.

the main thing to get right after that is the emphasis notes as a loop obviously won't know exactly which notes you're pushing.

 

[schust]

like a few above, i do both. i think it's a good solution. start with a solid loop and modify to taste. if you're good with your DAW's midi editor, you can get fast results. i've tried playing an electronic kit, programming and even mic'ing up a real kit. nothing comes close to the quality and quickness of putting together loops for me.

 

[Clockwork]

i used to do it all by hand and was fairly happy but finding and tweaking a similar loop is ALWAYS better and quicker. would love someone to prove me wrong. sure its possible to program something similar with a lot of work but why not just use something that a drummer has actually played? a lot of effort to get the slight groove swings as good as a drummer will.

the main thing to get right after that is the emphasis notes as a loop obviously won't know exactly which notes you're pushing.

^This. The times I do use loops it's always something generic like a blastbeat or carpet roll. It's just easier to drag it in than take the time and do it myself. If it fits it fits, can't argue with that. I like writing drum parts but there is no shame in saving time.

 

[Sacha]

Using real played MIDI is wayyyyyy more realistic. Even if you play it yourself. Hell even if you tap it in on a keyboard that's still better then drawing it in IMO. I used to draw it in and it would take for fucking EVER to try and humanize it, and still sound programmed anyway. There's just so much nuance to a real drum performance.

Here's an example of hand drawn (still pretty fucking proud of some of those fills!): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2183128/Portfolio/1_Monoculture.wav

Here is played MIDI: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2183128/Impasse/WalkAsChaos_Impasse.wav

No contest to me. I love drums as I play them as well (poorly) and always play a big part in my writing. I've been programming for well over a decade.

PS It's still a ton of work to edit loops, especially if you use time signatures etc., but it's worth it. It's best if you have a large library to choose from.

 

[Nimvi]

^really liked that second one!

 

[HeadCrusher]

^This. The times I do use loops it's always something generic like a blastbeat or carpet roll. It's just easier to drag it in than take the time and do it myself. If it fits it fits, can't argue with that. I like writing drum parts but there is no shame in saving time.

Tru dat

If there's some sort of "generic" fill that fits or maybe a rhythm part that's not riff-specific (say a double-kicks with hihats) I'll gladly take that. It's the accented riffs that call for a little more work.

 

[HeadCrusher]

Here's an example of hand drawn (still pretty fucking proud of some of those fills!): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2183128/Portfolio/1_Monoculture.wav

Here is played MIDI: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2183128/Impasse/WalkAsChaos_Impasse.wav

Granted the second one sounds much more open but you can't really compare these two imo. Just because of the genre the first one would be edited to be pretty much spot on anyway even if it was played by a real drummer. The hihat sounds like it's played at the same velocity all the time, especially in the beginning. With a little more work on that I think this could get pretty convincing. Good job!
And btw: I know it's hard for us musicians, engineers and producers to let go and be satisfied with our work but let's face it: No "regular" fan would ever notice probably not even the uber Metalheads that always claim to be music experts.