Promiscuity

[crimsonfloyd]

Rushton's theory is based on an attempt to extend the r/K selection theory to humans. He explains the patterns in the table by arguing that while all humans display extremely K-selected behavior, the races vary in the degree to which they exhibit that behavior. He argues that Negroids use a strategy more toward an r-selected strategy (produce more offspring, but provide less care for them) while Mongoloids use the K strategy most (produce fewer offspring but provide more care for them), with Caucasoids exhibiting intermediate tendencies in this area.

http://www.answers.com/topic/j-philippe-rushton

The !Kung, the Efe, the Hadza and all other hunter-gatherers I know of in Africa are predominatley monogomus, which doesn't support such a hypothisis. This sounds more like its foundation lies in contemporary stereotypes then in proper evolutionary expiriments.

 

[Norsemaiden]

The !Kung, the Efe, the Hadza and all other hunter-gatherers I know of in Africa are predominatley monogomus, which doesn't support such a hypothisis. This sounds more like its foundation lies in contemporary stereotypes then in proper evolutionary expiriments.

The tribes you mentioned there behave differently then from the inhabitants of the large swathes of Africa devastated by AIDs. Efforts are being made to get them to be less promiscuous and wear condoms, which would be unnecessary if they were monogamous. They could evolve to be monogamous because it is a survival stategy and those that cannot bear it are likely to get wiped out.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

The tribes you mentioned there behave differently then from the inhabitants of the large swathes of Africa devastated by AIDs. Efforts are being made to get them to be less promiscuous and wear condoms, which would be unnecessary if they were monogamous. They could evolve to be monogamous because it is a survival stategy and those that cannot bear it are likely to get wiped out.

Africa has only been "swathed with AIDS" for a feiw generaton. Africa's cultures were in general much more similar to the previously mentioned tribes then to contemporary African culture proior to the European conlinization of the content, and sex life was nowhere near as promiscuous as it is now. It seems you're suggesting a evolutionary mechanism that would push Africans exceptionally towards sexually promiscuous behavior. Such a trait would take far longer then the time since colonization to dominate a population.

Also I think you're getting cultural evolution and genetic evolution mixed up. Its very possible that African cultures will adapt to a monogomus liufestyle to avoid the rampant STDs, but this does not imply a change in genetic makeup, but rather a cultural response to a changing environment.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Africa has only been "swathed with AIDS" for a feiw generaton. Africa's cultures were in general much more similar to the previously mentioned tribes then to contemporary African culture proior to the European conlinization of the content, and sex life was nowhere near as promiscuous as it is now. It seems you're suggesting a evolutionary mechanism that would push Africans exceptionally towards sexually promiscuous behavior. Such a trait would take far longer then the time since colonization to dominate a population.

Also I think you're getting cultural evolution and genetic evolution mixed up. Its very possible that African cultures will adapt to a monogomus liufestyle to avoid the rampant STDs, but this does not imply a change in genetic makeup, but rather a cultural response to a changing environment.

I know a few very promiscuous men and they would not adapt to a cultural norm of monogamy. It is in their biology to behave as they do. This is why everyone is not equal. Some people have much higher sex drives than others combined with a lack of regard for their own health or that of anyone else. The thing in Africa of raping babies to try and cure AIDs is something surprisingly many men do without any conscience but there are other people who would not do it under any circumstances who live in the same culture. They have genetic differences that make them behave differently. I have noticed (because I don't try to make excuses for blacks) that most rapes in the West are commited by blacks. Also it is a well known fact that black males are reluctant to marry the mothers of their children and the vast majority of black kids grow up in single parent families. It is politically incorrect to say that this is a genetic (racial) characteristic - but surely it is. I don't say that it is wrong for them to do this. They have their way of doing things which involves promiscuity and singleparenthood. That is their strategy for spreading their genes. Let them be. It would be racist to impose another race's strategy onto them. In any case, their presence in our culture is rapidly bringing whites into line with blacks. White men have to compete with black men who are used to seducing many women. So whites are having to do the same thing in order to not be beaten to the prize. Result: more white single parents. Unless AIDs makes this unviable, things will develop further in this direction.

 

[Nicola]

I think it would be a shame though, if intelligent men were assumed to be less sexual by women . . .

I doubt that women see intelligent men as less sexual, although socially some more immature women may think that intelligent men are boring or 'geeky' and may not want to deal with them at all.

In my opinion, the sex drive is rooted solely in the desire to procreate and see to it that one's genes are carried on into the next generation, with females wanting to see that any resulting offspring are fathered by the male with the best genes possible so that that child can survive and prosper and eventually carry on the species as well. By 'best genes possible' I mean those passed on from a mate that is strong and healthy with a complementary immune system, meaning one whose weaknesses your immune system counteract and vice versa.

When it comes to forming a pair-bond with someone, I think intelligence will get you further than a pretty face and a good immune system.

I saw Dr. Helen Fisher recently on a television program and she theorized that in Hunter-Gatherer societies, past and present, women would breed with a male that was physically superior (meaning more strength, better immune system, etc.) to another male with whom she would then form a bond with to raise the resulting child fathered by the physically superior male. The male she would form the bond with would be chosen because he was more intelligent and thus could protect and provide for herself and the child better than the male who originally fathered the child.

 

[Norsemaiden]

I doubt that women see intelligent men as less sexual, although socially some more immature women may think that intelligent men are boring or 'geeky' and may not want to deal with them at all.

In my opinion, the sex drive is rooted solely in the desire to procreate and see to it that one's genes are carried on into the next generation, with females wanting to see that any resulting offspring are fathered by the male with the best genes possible so that that child can survive and prosper and eventually carry on the species as well. By 'best genes possible' I mean those passed on from a mate that is strong and healthy with a complementary immune system, meaning one whose weaknesses your immune system counteract and vice versa.

When it comes to forming a pair-bond with someone, I think intelligence will get you further than a pretty face and a good immune system.

I saw Dr. Helen Fisher recently on a television program and she theorized that in Hunter-Gatherer societies, past and present, women would breed with a male that was physically superior (meaning more strength, better immune system, etc.) to another male with whom she would then form a bond with to raise the resulting child fathered by the physically superior male. The male she would form the bond with would be chosen because he was more intelligent and thus could protect and provide for herself and the child better than the male who originally fathered the child.

I agree with you Nicola. The strategy of having a kid fathered by a different male from the one bringing up the family is still common as more than one in ten offspring are not the biological child of the man who thinks he is the father. The man bringing the child up would normally not be too happy about this, but it is a question of whether the child is similar in looks to himself and if the child is an improvement on what he would have produced then he would be expected to not mind. It has recently been found out that some birds, swans for example, the female will occasionally get fertilised by another male than the one she is paired up with. It used to be thought that swans were monogamous.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

I They have genetic differences that make them behave differently. I have noticed (because I don't try to make excuses for blacks) that most rapes in the West are commited by blacks.

Also it is a well known fact that black males are reluctant to marry the mothers of their children and the vast majority of black kids grow up in single parent families. It is politically incorrect to say that this is a genetic (racial) characteristic - but surely it is.

Do justify this claim one would need to do research cross-culturally that showed that those of African decent commited rape at a higher rate then other races regardless of cultural and enviornmental condtions. Historical evidence showing a tradition of rape pre-western contact would helpful as well. To claim this is self evident is absurd.

From an anthropological perspective there are several cultural trends that are observed in high-rape cultures. None of these trends are specific to Africa, and some were completley absent pre-colonization. "High-rape cultures are highly militarized and sex-segragated. There is a lot of difference in status between men and women. The care of children is devalued and delegated to subordinate females... creation myths of high-rape cultures recognize only male deity rather than a female diety or a couple... high-rape cultures had recent experiences- meaning in the last few hundred years- of famine or migration. That is to say, they had not reached stable adaptation to thier ecological niche." Also keep in mind that when Europeans colonized Africa they raped the fuck out of the people, and American slave owners were nutorious for raping their slaves. To jump for the "its genetic!" answer, espically with no evidence to support this hypoithisis, when there are strong cultural implications for the high number of rapes in African cultures is to choose ignorance.

 

[RookParliament]

I know a few very promiscuous men and they would not adapt to a cultural norm of monogamy. It is in their biology to behave as they do. This is why everyone is not equal. Some people have much higher sex drives than others combined with a lack of regard for their own health or that of anyone else. The thing in Africa of raping babies to try and cure AIDs is something surprisingly many men do without any conscience but there are other people who would not do it under any circumstances who live in the same culture. They have genetic differences that make them behave differently. I have noticed (because I don't try to make excuses for blacks) that most rapes in the West are commited by blacks. Also it is a well known fact that black males are reluctant to marry the mothers of their children and the vast majority of black kids grow up in single parent families. It is politically incorrect to say that this is a genetic (racial) characteristic - but surely it is. I don't say that it is wrong for them to do this. They have their way of doing things which involves promiscuity and singleparenthood. That is their strategy for spreading their genes. Let them be. It would be racist to impose another race's strategy onto them. In any case, their presence in our culture is rapidly bringing whites into line with blacks. White men have to compete with black men who are used to seducing many women. So whites are having to do the same thing in order to not be beaten to the prize. Result: more white single parents. Unless AIDs makes this unviable, things will develop further in this direction.

Please back this up with some evidence. Also, if this evidence could unambigiously prove that blacks have a genetic predesposition for rape, promiscuity, and single parenthood, that would be good as well.

Otherwise that entire post is just racism trying to give itself a sheen of scientific veracity. Which I hate.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Please back this up with some evidence. Also, if this evidence could unambigiously prove that blacks have a genetic predesposition for rape, promiscuity, and single parenthood, that would be good as well.

Otherwise that entire post is just racism trying to give itself a sheen of scientific veracity. Which I hate.

Do you realise that I could get in a lot of trouble with the moderators if I provide evidence like that? I'm going to hope Speed and Final Product will be reasonable because I am only going to give verifyable sources and it is only because I was asked to.

"South Africa - Rape Capital of the World" (and the problem is GETTING WORSE POST appartheid. Source : BBC so it is the main establishment media source in the UK http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/258446.stm

One in three women "said they had been raped in the past year". "In a related study conducted among 1,500 schoolchildren in the Soweto township a quarter of all the boys interviewed said that jackrolling - a South African word for recreational gang rape - was fun."

"More than half the interviewees said that when a girl says no to sex she really means yes."

Another site with evidence: http://www.jabpage.org/features/racestat7.html

Most recenjt case in UK news: Mary Ann Leneghan, 16 and her friend, raped and murdered by 6 non-whites.

More stats. http://www.americandaily.com/article/9584
In the US "between 2001 and 2003 blacks were 39 times more likely to commit violent crimes against whites than the reverse."

"15,400 black on white rapes per year, while whites averaged 900 white-on-black rapes per year." (Although I don't recall seeing any big crime stories regarding this. Probably because date rape is not newsworthy).

Single parent families: see graph http://www.children.smartlibrary.org/Newinterface/segment.cfm?segment=1818

Lots of information including "By 1993, 27% of children in the US were growing up in single parent households. This figure represents 57% of black children, 32% of Hispanic children and 21% of white children."

Number of sexual partners. http://aspe.hhs.gov/HSP/97trends/sd4-4.htm
36% of blacks had 4 or more partners and 14% of whites did.

In Africa there is a lot of disrespect for women. The rape is one aspect of this. The way women are expected to do most of the work and the child rearing and are devalued and treated like shit is all par for the course.

There was an infamous case of a black slave called Sally Hemmings being allegedly raped by her white slave owner and I should think there would be cases of this happening, but it must have been extremely rare if the slave was family owned as the man's wife would not stand for that kind of behaviour. The slave in family houses were treated like one of the family, and any that were not would be a danger as they would be likely to attack in revenge. In the victorian times any poor women were in danger of abuse by rich men. It was because of the power they held. Landlords would sometimes demand favours from women or else they would lose their house and employers could exploit women workers (race not a factor). It is only because of recent laws protecting women (western laws) that things have improved.

I would like to see some evidence provided for the allegation that white colonials mass raped African. Which I consider bullshit. A few years ago there was some kind of legal challenge by some natives saying British troops had raped them and they wanted compensation. But it turned out that it was not true and that they were just hoping to get money and were encouraged by lawyers who thought they could try and get something in public to make people think that British troops would behave that way. Black propaganda.

Am I the only one who has to provide evidence?

I think we can't discuss this any further as comments criticising what I have written will be the only ones that can be posted without risk. No one should even bother agreeing with me. I am going to avoid the subject if possible now.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

All of those links are fine and dandy for supporting the general argument that those those of African decent are in general more sexually promiscuous at present date. However nothing in any of the artciles support genetic causes over cultural causes. For example, in South Africa rape is getting worse post apparthide, however the anthropological thesis on rape states that high-rape cultures have had dramatic changes within the past several hundred years. South Africa has most definitley expierenced such changes. African Americans have as well, going from slavery to freedom, from legally second-class citizens to having equal rights.

One quote that does not support your genetic theisis from the Soth Africa artile is "(The school girls) suggested they were living in an intollerable sexual environment." One would expect if rape was historically common for Africans there would be high tolerance of rape in African women, somewhat like what is seen with gorillas and infanticide.

I am visiting family right now, so I don't have any of references on me, but when I return home on Tuesday I can post documentation of rape in Africa during colonization, rape by Europeans throughout the world during colnization, and an artcile by human ecologists who argue that it is highly implausible for rape to be evolutionarily benifical in any traditional society.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Nothing happened in South Africa that should have increased the amount of rape and crime generally. Appartheid was supposed to have been evil and when the appartheid went the Africans who were previously ruled by whites could show their true abilities and so they did.

We evolved from Africans and they have more primitive behaviour than us because of this. We have our bad characteristics and they have theirs. We are not the same. I saw a film about Rwanda yesterday. These Hutus excell at making ditches full of acid and throwing thousand of people into them. They put a lot of effort into that. Agriculture however doesn't seem to interest them at all.

The average black teenage boy in our culture would be thinking about sex all the time and acting on it - with real women (I don't mean rape). Wheras the average white boy seems to prefer being computer obsessed (and interested in internet porn rather than the real deal). So which is more natural? And who's going to go extinct? I don't want to talk about inferiority or superiority, but I think you can tell which stategy is the winner there! And I think I can get away with slagging off whites.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

Nothing happened in South Africa that should have increased the amount of rape and crime generally. Appartheid was supposed to have been evil and when the appartheid went the Africans who were previously ruled by whites could show their true abilities and so they did.

Reread the quote I posted twice by the cultural anthropologist. Take note that changes in the cultural landscape can take sevel hundred years to develop. It's nieve to believe cultural evolution is a knee-jerk reaction.

We evolved from Africans and they have more primitive behaviour than us because of this.

This statement is founded in several misunderstandings concerning evolutionary theory.

1) that Africans are evolutionarily stagnent

2) that the enviorment of Africa never changes

3) that complex entities always arise from less complex entities

4) that Europeans evolved from Africans as they are today, rather then both evolving from a shared anscestor. This is like calling your cousin your grandmother just because your cousin looks more like your grandmother then you do.

These Hutus excell at making ditches full of acid and throwing thousand of people into them. They put a lot of effort into that. Agriculture however doesn't seem to interest them at all.

*sarcasm* Yeah cuz white people never commit attrocities *sarcasm*

Comparing agriculture and slaughter is absurd. Its like saying "You have time to drink coffee but you won't listen to my new album?"

 

[Norsemaiden]

But they really don't do well at agriculture do they? They can't seem to be bothered and rely on aid from the west.

I don't get what cultural changes would make the men of a population start raping their own women such that one in three was raped every year. Can you explain this and explain that why you think it is not the case that this translates into these men being prone to do the same to women when they emmigrate to the West?

Why did white men not behave like that in the great depressions of the 1920s and the Irish potato famine and post american civil war and in germany after both world wars? Don't you agree it would be unimaginable for one in three western women to be raped per year as their menfolk would be more inclined to get bloody revenge on the other men who behaved that way to their women? Imagine a quarter of white schoolboys laughing enjoying gang rape of their own people. It is absurd. I suppose you disagree out of principle rather than seriously thinking about what I'm saying.

 

[Neith]

But they really don't do well at agriculture do they? They can't seem to be bothered and rely on aid from the west.

As you should know by now, most people are not a united group, and so they do things that they can do to help themselves (not the group) in the short term. Just as the British farmers rarely come together to protest about something the government has done which they do not approve of. Instead, they complain about it individually and each person does what they can to help themselves. Surely you couldn't expect any different from any other race or group of people? By nature people are not united in helping each other. Whilst individual African's have probably tried to grow crops and breed animals etc in the hope of bettering their long term and short term place in society, the rest of this group may make it much harder for this individual by killing the animals, burning the crops and threatening the individual and his/ her family.

Why did white men not behave like that in the great depressions of the 1920s and the Irish potato famine and post american civil war and in germany after both world wars? Don't you agree it would be unimaginable for one in three western women to be raped per year as their menfolk would be more inclined to get bloody revenge on the other men who behaved that way to their women? Imagine a quarter of white schoolboys laughing enjoying gang rape of their own people. It is absurd. I suppose you disagree out of principle rather than seriously thinking about what I'm saying.

In the above situations which you have listed, the people in question had not just become free from oppression for the first time, and there was also hope that thier situation was going to get better (which it did). I'm not excusing what is happening, it is abhorrant, however, a great deal needs to be taken into account when studying why Africa is the way it is today, whether the focus is on how many women are raped each year, or how opinions have changed on monogamy in Africa, or indeed, why these African's are not working hard cohesively to improve their situation.

A point I don't feel too happy about bringing up is although in Africa X percentage of women are gang raped each year, in Britain a huge proportion of the female population would be willing to take part in gang bangs and so it is not rape. I know it is not politically correct to say such a thing, but people in this country are becoming increasingly whorish.

Statistics are not always reliable, and whilst those obtained about South Africa are shocking, it is hardly possible to successfully compare them to other countries in the world as statistics are gathered in different ways. Also, the fact that a huge proportion of rape cases in Britain are not even reported due to the stigma involved show that statistics are not reliable, and underneath society's glossy coating, it may be nearly are bad as South Africa is made out to be.

 

[Norsemaiden]

I truly believe that if it ever got anywhere near the African rate of rape here in Britain there would be a civil war, such would be the violent reaction to such attacks on members of one's family. I know how angry the men in my family would feel and I am sure they would never perpetrate it on anyone either. I pity you if you can't say the same about your family.

What you say about the increasing whorishness of girls who are happy to have gang bangs in this country is a sad development I agree. The report on Soweto said the school girls were upset about these gang bangs, so they weren't laughing and joking like the boys. It sounds like they felt really helpless and that the men wouldn't be interested in defending them at all.

 

[LORD_RED_DRAGON]

there was a reason why i didn't want to post on this thread but i forgot what that reason was
and since i can't really think of anything on-topic that hasn't already been said, i'm just going to say that i pretty much agree with everything that Norsemaiden has said because as a mullatto i am in the unique position of being able to realize that she's not actually a racist person as she appears to be, it's just hard to articulate any concepts concerning race without sounding either "racist" or sounding like you're being a "race traitor"

 

[speed]

This thread is rapidly approaching the close-down phase. Rapidly.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Thanks for that LRD. No more mention of race on this thread then.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

Ok I'm gonna avoid the whole race thing, but I have a few general comments on rape in general. First of all I would like to quote an article from the journal "Trends in Ecology and Evolution". This is a leading journal within the studies of human ecology. The article is titled "Controversies in the evolutionary social sciences: a guide for the perplexed" by Smith, Mulder and Hill.

"We use the most complete data availible from a single hunter gather group in order to estimate fitness costs and benifits of a single rape by a male aged 25 years (compared to an otherwise idenical nonraping male). We assume that most rapes... target reproductive aged women resident in their own community.

"Although our list of parameters and estimates of thier values... is certainly not definitive, we have not knowingly excluded factors that could plausibly alter the balance in favor of the evolution of rape. If anything we have been conservative in estimating the costs of raping.

"The model predicts that, with the estimated parameter values, the total fitness cost of rape is an order of magnitude higher than the expected reproductive value. This suggests that only men with a reproductive value of (less then or equal to) 1/10 that of an average 25 year old can benifit from rape... Because the expected payoff of rape is so low, few, if any men should be disposed to rape as a reproductive stratagy unless the cost is near zero."

And I think this emphasises one of the major flaws in this entire discussion of rape, namley rape is most often an act of genetic preservation, but rather an act of power.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Rape is indeed an act of power. I never would have denied that. This is why old women are sometimes raped and why homosexual rape is done by a heterosexual rapist.
Promiscuity, however, is a strategy for reproducing which works in terms of spreading a male's genes around, but it makes for quantity at the expense of quality perhaps. This could be because if a man sticks with one woman and helps her raise a large number of children they will be better at surviving and reproducing in turn than the scattered and damaged offspring of an absent father. On the other hand, if the monogamous couples are having very few children and the promiscuous men are managing to impregnate a larger number of women, then they will be more genetically successful.