Quick Question about plugin output gain

[koalamo]

So I was watching these groove 3 tutorial videos on mixing rock and alot of the stuff he was doing i recognized from the stuff I've read on this forum (buss compression/ bass di duplicating and so on)

one thing I noticed though is that he applied plugins with little regard to how loud the plugin was actually making track, ie some of the tracks after the plugins were pushing like -3db on their highest peaks


when i apply plugins i usually adjust the output volume in the plugin so that the signal is at the same relative volume it was before I applied the plugin this way my fader still resides at unity


is this the correct way of doing things or am i wrong ( I hate watching tutorials sometimes they make me extremely paranoid)

 

[Trevoire520]

You're totally right dude. Plugin output gain should be set to give the same perceived volume whether it's active or bypassed, as this allows you to make a informed judgment on whether you're making things sound better or worse.

 

[ahjteam]

yeah, I usually also try to make the result at unity gain, that way I'm not getting fooled by the "louder is better" aspect.

 

[MetalSound]

to a/b the signal it is indeed better to adjust the gain. but there are some plugins (like UAD neve 1073) which sound better when cranked up.
some time ago i read here that some people don´t like to use make-up gain on a comp for example which i hardly understand. in the digital world it shouldn´t matter if you use the make-up function of an ssl 4k bus comp or just adjust the volume fader. i could understand it in the hardware world where it may add noise etc. but in digital....
please correct me if i´m wrong.

 

[greyskull]

to a/b the signal it is indeed better to adjust the gain. but there are some plugins (like UAD neve 1073) which sound better when cranked up.
some time ago i read here that some people don´t like to use make-up gain on a comp for example which i hardly understand. in the digital world it shouldn´t matter if you use the make-up function of an ssl 4k bus comp or just adjust the volume fader. i could understand it in the hardware world where it may add noise etc. but in digital....
please correct me if i´m wrong.

You may be thinking of Andy Wallace who IIRC, doesnt use make up gain on the 4K bus comp in the analogue realm.

The o.p is spot on though, gotta get your gain staging right.
One of the things that annoys the hell out of me is plugins that make things louder off the bat with the default setting (yes i know i can change it). Like the CLA compressors awesome as they sound!

 

[egan.]

Yeah, the OP has the right idea. I'm really surprised that more plugin makers don't incorporate auto make-up gain. Even something like the CLA which theoretically changes color based on the output setting, you could easily incorporate a clean (auto) stage afterward.

 

[koalamo]

Yeah, the OP has the right idea. I'm really surprised that more plugin makers don't incorporate auto make-up gain. Even something like the CLA which theoretically changes color based on the output setting, you could easily incorporate a clean (auto) stage afterward.

The 1176 emu?? fuckkk I've been lowering the output volume on mine I didn't realize it effected the sound ):

 

[tempe]

It's not for better or worse man, just different! Also the CLA comps piss me off to no end. Waves do it with a few of their plug-ins, you open them up and its suddenly a LOT louder. I think its designed for when idiots demo their plug-ins. You get a lot of "OH WOW THIS PLUGIN MAKES EVERYTHING SOUND AMAZING," because its louder thus more sales. I've actually had a few occasions where I've chucked one on for whatever reason with a client present and they ask why I don't put that plug-in on everything because it makes everything sound so much better :\

 

[Melodeath]

The CLA comps output knobs are modelled too? I didn't know. I thought it was just the compression that was modelled, not the make-up gain as well. Anyone have evidence? I'll check the manual

Anyway, gain staging is good practice, but sometimes the time spent lowering the output of a plug-in (it's not always incorporated well) to A/B is just too consuming and not worth it in the long-run (if you feel you know it's making the sound better).

 

[egan.]

Hey guys, that was speculation on my part b/c it certainly makes a difference on a real 1176. I was mostly making a point but I shouldn't have used an example I wasn't positive about. Sorry for the confusion I may have caused. That said, Waves did model the hum so I still think it's probable they'd want the output stage as well.

 

[26]

i think on the api stuff they indeed did something to the output gain. i once read that the harware comps really come to life if you turn it up, and since i can't imagine that my ears are fooling me this hard, the same seems to be the case with the plugins, too.

 

[AudioGeekZine]

That was something that bugged me about the video too. I like Kenny but not his gain staging.

 

[koalamo]

That was something that bugged me about the video too. I like Kenny but not his gain staging.

Agreed, the guy definitely knows what he's doing but it definitely confused the fuck out of me </3

 

[ahjteam]

and the even better example of this is one of the cubase tutorials on youtube (which I also think are from groove3), where the dude has some seriously HORRIBLE sounding processing, then he turns on all the plugins and is like LISTEN HOW MUCH BETTER IT SOUNDS and it's like 10dB louder...

Yup, found it... http://www.groove3.com/str/popup_vplayer.php?id=310&productid=16184