Reactionary Darkthrone

[Helm]

After Immortal's "I" record, more signs of the times: http://my.opera.com/NorthernVantage/blog/2007/05/14/darkthrone-new-fenriz-interview

Now we are supposed to believe Fenriz has been listening to his Cirith Ungol and Brocas Helm LPs from the 80's all this time. Expect a lot more of this reactionary embracing of Heavy Metal by disgruntled black metal bands in the future. Understandable because of all the racist idiots surrounding the 'Wagner as Black Metal PURE ROMANTIC ART NO my pals' scene, but also a bit stupid in its own right. Way to invalidate your 'artistic statement' as a black metal band, there.

When Fenriz says 'HEIL OMEN' I think he means 'I was recently reaquainted with the work of the Heavy Metal band by the name of Omen, and I think I've been missing out all these years!'

 

[Cheiron]

Heh. I don't see why he wouldn't have been listening to those albums.

 

[Helm]

Because to the best of my knowledge he hasn't 'hailed' any of these bands in interviews before recently? This is a conscious - if reactionary - shift. He's trying to recontextualize his band's efforts.

'New Wave of Black Heavy Metal' anyone?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Fenriz has become hip in Germany's Rock Hard magazine, boozing with editor Götz Kühnemund on the magazine's DVD and praising old thrash. He even has a small column now in the zine at times. In 1992 or so, there was an interview with the band that was interrupted and ended with the writer and Fenriz caling one another assholes. The times, they are a-changing...

 

[Fando]

Because to the best of my knowledge he hasn't 'hailed' any of these bands in interviews before recently? This is a conscious - if reactionary - shift. He's trying to recontextualize his band's efforts.

This -- Implying some connection with "I" --may be the dumbest fucking thing I've read on this forum. More so since Immortal had been masquerading as a heavy metal band about 3 albums prior.

Fenriz has been namedropping shit for years (regardless, people's listening habits do change- James Raggi can tell you about that) And he's been the poster-child of friendly-funny black booze metal for longer. Stop trying to connect the dots Dave Burns style from one interview. Darkthrone...was always kind of a joke. When you realize that, it becomes much more beautiful in its own right.

 

[skeptik]

What an absurd suggestion to make about Darkthrone...

 

[Helm]

This may be the dumbest fucking thing I've read on this forum.

Given this opinion I am not sure what purpose it would serve to argue with you, but hey, here it goes:

More so since Immortal had been masquerading as a heavy metal band about 3 albums prior.

How does this change anything? I liked the I record by the way, I thought it had some nicely done HM songs, though the vocals were a bit samey and the record kinda dragged after a bit.

people's listening habits do change

I have no problem with that. People whose tastes have changed would better let their new tastes rest and settle for a while before they start HAILing things left and right I believe, though. It's also a good idea to drop one name for another when you decide to make music in a form that radically contradicts what you've been doing under that name to that point. This is a point of critique to Immortal post 'At the Heart of Winter', but it doesn't weigh heavily against I at all.

Stop trying to connect the dots Dave Burns style from one interview.

I didn't know critical thinking is a 'Dave Burns' thing. Also, why should I stop this? Because you disagree with me?

Darkthrone...was always kind of a joke. When you realize that, it becomes much more beautiful in its own right.

I am not sure how many would agree with you on that one. But if one takes prime-era Darkthrone as a joke, then one has to do the same for almost all second-wave black metal. The circle of pure romantic wagnerian no-my pals black metal art seems to narrow and narrow... what are you left with, Hvis Lyset Tar Oss?

I don't think Darkthrone were concieved or operated as a joke at any point of their carreer, regardless of whether I liked their music or not (I never did). Rather than disregarding them on the whole as a joke, it pays more to look at what they're doing, in relation to their past, and the scene they inhabit. It's easy to just go 'bah, these guys are a joke' to anything we don't like.

 

[Fando]

I am not sure how many would agree with you on that one. But if one takes prime-era Darkthrone as a joke, then one has to do the same for almost all second-wave black metal.

If you can't distinguish between Darkthrone, who completely backed down when they knew they had taken their gimmick too far, Immortal, who outside of their music were little more than a non-threatening puppet show, and self-interested, earnest ego-maniacs like Vikernes, the thread won't continue much farther.

The circle of pure romantic wagnerian no-my pals black metal art seems to narrow and narrow... what are you left with, Hvis Lyset Tar Oss?

What in the holy fuck are you talking about? Did you just read Lords of Chaos yesterday? If him name-dropping BROCAS HELM in an interview is --in your eyes-- a play to separate himself from the rising tide of neo-romantics and racists than what-the-hell was behind his decision to begin making trance music years ago, or play in a stoner rock band (Valhall) or attempt to partner up with Phil Anselmo or put out his own compilation with Mercyful Fate and BULLDOZER or any of the dozens of varied musical projects he's been associated with. The cynical tone of your original post ("Oh yeah, like he really listened to Cirith Ungol!") marks you as paranoid, and your argument effectively senseless.

I don't think Darkthrone were concieved or operated as a joke at any point of their carreer, regardless of whether I liked their music or not (I never did). Rather than disregarding them on the whole as a joke, it pays more to look at what they're doing, in relation to their past, and the scene they inhabit. It's easy to just go 'bah, these guys are a joke' to anything we don't like.

I don't disregard them as a joke, I embrace them as having at least a sense of humor and joy about what they're doing. My point was one should have never bought into their wholecloth persona - wether it be anti-semetic or over the top Satanic statements or pretending they can't play their instruments, because in every way they are certainly sharper than they appear to be. There's always been a self-referential spinal-tappish quality to them; the only thing that's changed is that they're way more up front about it now. He definitely has been rediscovering more old-school metal lately. He's been talking about nothing BUT that in all his recent interviews. At the same time Darkthrone has basically been a crusty punk band for the past 3-4 albums.

If you can't laugh at "New Wave of Black Heavy Metal" perhaps your indignation would best be put to use writing music in the vein of Hvis Lyset Tar Oss...

 

[Fando]

How does this change anything? I liked the I record by the way, I thought it had some nicely done HM songs, though the vocals were a bit samey and the record kinda dragged after a bit.

This isn't "critical thinking" on your part; it's a haphazard attempt at cause and effect regarding what you call a "reactionary embracing" of heavy metal by black metal groups while citing I as a "sign of the times." But Immortal had been playing up their trad. metal influence since At the Heart of Winter --a point which you later acknowledged. So how is an album that drops eight years after the fact "reactionary" in this light? The only major difference between Sons of Northern Darkness and Between Two Worlds is that the latter is more populist in sound and composition, however the major influences on hand -- Venom and Bathory -- hardly qualify as much of a radical change in expression or outlook.

 

[Scourge of God]

Isn't this essentially the life-cycle of EVERY band? Their early works mark the height of the creative energies and their later albums drift either toward self-parody (Mayhem), combinations of their own work and whatever is popular at the moment (Enslaved), some idealized, nostalgic version of what they listened to as youths (Immortal and Darkthrone) or 'evolution' through technical wankery (Emperor). There's no conspiracy suggested or needed: just bands running out of ideas.

 

[Scourge of God]

And let's not forget that DarkThrone has hardly gone out of their way to distinguish themselves from the "no my pals" end of the genre. We are talking about DarkThrone.

"Norsk arisk black metal" DarkThrone, "...they should be patronized for their obviously Jewish behavior" DarkThrone, close friends and artistic collaborators with Varg Vikernes DarkThrone. You know, that DarkThrone?

 

[BenMech]

If Darkthrone was an intentional joke - was it starting with Soulside Journey or after? I admit I don't listen to them, but I am aware of their chronology.

Btw, I is a side project/one-off.

 

[Fando]

"Norsk arisk black metal" DarkThrone, "...they should be patronized for their obviously Jewish behavior" DarkThrone, close friends and artistic collaborators with Varg Vikernes DarkThrone. You know, that DarkThrone?

Well if you want to get into that, from a Vargian perspective they've certainly gotten a tan since '94.

 

[Scourge of God]

Well if you want to get into that, from a Vargian perspective they've certainly gotten a tan since '94.

Honestly, I don't really see it. What's changed since '94 is not so much DarkThrone as Varg, who has responded to prison in a fairly predictable pattern of increasing ideological ossification and fanaticism. It's pretty clear that Vikernes was always a nationalist of some stripe, but his years in prison have left him with little but his political convictions. Both DarkThrone and Varg have grown increasingly alienated from 'black metal' as a movement, but the former retreated into the consumption of vast quantities of psychotropic substances and the latter into an echo chamber where reality consists of himself and internerd toadies.

In other words, DarkThrone just seem 'tan' in comparison to a guy who has completely plunged off the deep end.

 

[Helm]

This isn't "critical thinking" on your part; it's a haphazard attempt at cause and effect regarding what you call a "reactionary embracing" of heavy metal by black metal groups

A very easy method of invalidating or validating my claim will take a bit of patience: let's wait and see what other bands in the next 2-3 years or so, both in the Black Metal scene and in other subgenres, revert (or invent history) to HAIL BROCAS HELMisms and such.

It's not going to be as much fun as insulting each other on the internet right here and now, but hey.

nostalgic version of what they listened to as youths

That's partly the thing though, I posit that most Black Metal bands of the second wave have never been originally fans of underground US metal like Cirith Ungol of all things. It's not the same as listening to Saxon or Iron Maiden. From the three 'hailed' bands in that interview, I consider it possible that a young Fenriz fresh into heavy metal, might have heard perhaps Omen. Of course I cannot substantiate such a claim with any sort of evidence, but it seems more likely than not, considering what I've read in interviews from 1993 to today. All these sons of Bathory and Hellhammer didn't seem to know their obscure 80's Heavy Metal at all.

"Norsk arisk black metal" DarkThrone, "...they should be patronized for their obviously Jewish behavior" DarkThrone, close friends and artistic collaborators with Varg Vikernes DarkThrone. You know, that DarkThrone?

Yeah, a very reactionary Darkthrone with no concrete ideology, out to shock. Like most Black Metal bands out there. Once the shift occured and suddenly there were more metal bands with sorta NS ideals than not (in the Black Metal scene) it's now time for a new reaction!

Btw, I is a side project/one-off.

Abbath claimed to be writing material for a second album, and they've played live as far as I know so wrong on both counts. Probably.

Wait, hah, I skipped a post. The UM forums have a big problem with people doubleposting instead of editing their stream-of-consciousness replies. Here's how it's done. We don't want to let anything fall to the ground now:

What in the holy fuck are you talking about? Did you just read Lords of Chaos yesterday?

What's with the IN MY FACE type of talking? Please calm down if possible. I am not out there to have internet fights with anyone, so why provoke me? I haven't read this book.

The cynical tone of your original post ("Oh yeah, like he really listened to Cirith Ungol!") marks you as paranoid, and your argument effectively senseless.

If character assassination marks any argument as anything, you mean. I don't subscribe to that sort of reasoning. You're trying to blow up what I said out of proportion. I don't see any conspiracy here, I am amused at what I believe will be a reactionary fallback to 'tried and true' Heavy Metal by people in dead-end genres, sick of their own fans. It's a natural process, that bears examination. It's not A HEAVY METAL BATTLE FOR GLORY or anything. Relax.

If you can't laugh at "New Wave of Black Heavy Metal" perhaps your indignation would best be put to use writing music in the vein of Hvis Lyset Tar Oss...

See this is the problem: you see a thread posted on the LotFP message board (even if it's not by any of the writers for the actual 'zine, and if none of them have significantly added to it or agreed with me) and you think someone is attempting hard-hitting journalism for power. Who's to say there's any indignation involved here? I actually find the situation more amusing than worrying. You're adhomineming all over the place. Keep in mind: you don't know me, I might not be how you think I am because of where I post or what I post about. Approach what I say with at least a degree of good will or not at all. Again again again again the internet is a place for nothing battles and I know it's hard to snap out of that mode of conduct, but I am totally not looking for that. Let's discuss about Heavy Metal without me being painted as a paranoid nonsensical angry champion of metal against falseness.

 

[Scourge of God]

That's partly the thing though, I posit that most Black Metal bands of the second wave have never been originally fans of underground US metal like Cirith Ungol of all things. It's not the same as listening to Saxon or Iron Maiden. From the three 'hailed' bands in that interview, I consider it possible that a young Fenriz fresh into heavy metal, might have heard perhaps Omen. Of course I cannot substantiate such a claim with any sort of evidence, but it seems more likely than not, considering what I've read in interviews from 1993 to today. All these sons of Bathory and Hellhammer didn't seem to know their obscure 80's Heavy Metal at all.

How so? It's obvious to anyone with ears that mid-period Bathory was influenced by Cirith Ungol, and the 'underground' US heavy metal acts were always most popular in precisely the same Northern European locales that black metal emerged from. You've made an enormous leap in logic here from "They didn't talk about certain bands in interviews" to "they didn't listen to those bands." This is, of course, absurd, since it ignores the basic reality of interviews, namely that they consist of very abbreviated responses to specific questions. The bands that get namedropped in most interviews are direct influences. Metallica and Slayer talked a lot about Diamond Head, Judas Priest and Discharge for that reason, and not about Black Sabbath, even though both bands listened to Sabbath as teens. This isn't rocket science.

Yeah, a very reactionary Darkthrone with no concrete ideology, out to shock.

And how many contemporary NSBM bands have a 'concrete' ideology?
For that matter, what 'concrete' ideology motivated Burzum or Graveland? I think you're confusing after the fact articulation with the moment of expression itself. The reality is that DarkThrone associated themselves with certain imagery and ideas and never disassociated themselves from that imagery. In fact, several of their side projects (notably Storm, but also to a lesser extent, Isengard and Neptune Towers) made use of some of the same nationalist/totalitarian iconography, but you seem to totally ignore that in favor of your own cockamamie personal theory.

 

[Scourge of God]

If Darkthrone was an intentional joke - was it starting with Soulside Journey or after? I admit I don't listen to them, but I am aware of their chronology.

Btw, I is a side project/one-off.

DarkThrone was never a 'joke,' though, like most of the bands in that circle (with the exception of Mayhem and Enslaved), there were strong undercurrents of humor veiled within the otherwise unremitting gloom (not unlike Existentialist art, really).

 

[Helm]

And how many contemporary NSBM bands have a 'concrete' ideology?

I am actually not aware of any. Care to enlighten me? Also how does this comes into play against my argument?

It's obvious to anyone with ears that mid-period Bathory was influenced by Cirith Ungol

What? I have no info on this but having heard my share of Bathory and Cirith Ungol (much more) I simply do not hear it. One band attempting epic metal doesn't sound like another band attempting epic metal necessarily. You say 'obvious to anyone with ears' I say 'arguable and not to be strong-armed as fact'.

But it's peripheral to my argument since the issue isn't what Bathory were listening to, but what second wave black metal bands were listening to. A degree of separation between Cirith Ungol to Darkthrone (that being Bathory), even if we were to agree that Bathory listened to the former, is enough to completely whipe any trace of that sound from Darkthrone. Especially since by far the more influential Bathory material are the early noisy stuff.

I am aware that the names mentioned in interviews are not all that's listened to. But the case is, what names are mentioned are important because they're considered indicative of the direction that the band wants to go towards (amongst other possible considerations). At any rate, even if we were to accept that Darkthrone listened to Cirith Ungol in the 80's, I'd find it equally funny and to a degree telling if Darkthrone went today 'HAIL METALLICA!'.

However, not to slippery-slope into an agreement with you for no reason, I still find it really unlikely that Cirith Ungol or Brocas Helm were on regular rotation, or an influence to anything from Soulside Journey to whatever the hell they lastly put out.

 

[Fando]

I don't see any conspiracy here, I am amused at what I believe will be a reactionary fallback to 'tried and true' Heavy Metal by people in dead-end genres, sick of their own fans. It's a natural process, that bears examination. It's not A HEAVY METAL BATTLE FOR GLORY or anything. Relax.

You have not explained how any of this is “reactionary” in response to points already made about Immortal/Darkthrone. This was the basis of your original posts. There’s no need to “wait and see” because you haven’t even accounted for these two examples. I will agree with Scourge’s remarks on general decline of ideas and quality. The same things have happened creatively, with regard to both heavy metal and rock n’ roll to:

Death
Dismember
Deicide
Edge of Sanity
At the Gates
Entombed
Dissection

And so on. But you’re not even arguing about the musical aspect (which crumbles in light of Darkthrone’s recent output. Siouxsie and the Banshees and Testors covers?) You're making assumptions based on someone just talking about these bands. For what you’re arguing to have any validity, it would mean some difference in music besides obscurity. That is, what makes Cirith Ungol and Omen any more Heavy Metal than Hellhammer, Bathory, Venom, Celtic Frost, Mercyful Fate? This is becoming petty, I would add, not least because of the time you spend whining about my “angry tone” than responding to my actual argument.

 

[Helm]

But you’re not even arguing about the musical aspect (which crumbles in light of Darkthrone’s recent output. Siouxsie and the Banshees and Testors covers?)

I thought this was pretty much self-explanatory in the sense that the newfound reverence for 'heavy metal', will find its way as an influence in the new material. You know, an EP called 'New Wave of Black Heavy Metal'? Shall we wait and see how many NWOBHM riffs are in that one?

That is, what makes Cirith Ungol and Omen any more Heavy Metal than Hellhammer, Bathory, Venom, Celtic Frost, Mercyful Fate?

That is upon anyone's personal taste to answer, but the answer doesn't matter for this discussion. That Fenriz seems to find special significance in this Omen-Brocas Helm-Cirith Ungol hailing is telling in itself, it's not a matter of my personal opinion on which bands are 'more Heavy Metal' or not. Simply put, you're asking the wrong question, to the wrong guy.

This is becoming petty, I would add, not least because of the time you spend whining about my “angry tone” than responding to my actual argument.

Feel free to stop arguing with me the second this discussion becomes more petty than your standards, then.