Regarding live sound at metal shows

[SyXified]

Alright, I'm going to really try to keep this to a concise rant. Also, disclaimer, Earthlink/Progpower are entirely exempt from anything negative said here, and are exception I have found to live sound.

So, I saw Children of Bodom last night and I've finally got to say somthing about this. Metal bands need to turn the fuck down. Not because it hurts my ears, but because they are turning the sound into mud. More and more these days metal bands feel the need to overwhelm the PA so much more than is necessary to fill a venue. All the drums end up clipping noticably and the low end is so loud it washes out all the mid range with overtones. Then of course the bass and low end on the guitar get cranked (thank you mesa/boogie) - and when you do that and whoft out that much low end, what happens is the vibrations mess up your ear drums because they are overwhelmed, and the whole sound scheme is negatively effected. It's so stupid that people have to wear EAR PLUGS to live shows! First off, that's like running the heater and the air conditioner at the same time to maintain room temperature. Secondly, that's like walking up to an EQ and turning the Bass all the way up and the Treble all the way down - which means you lose all your high end definition. I understand its more intense and involving for a large crowd to be loud, but bands like Boston and TSO manage to do so at reasonable levels with a similarly large sonic pallette and they sound a MILLION times better. I love Children of Bodom, but when you are up so loud it becomes really hard to actually hear what is going on unless you know the song well enough to follow along. Solos end up sounding like brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, either up or down. And dammit, haven't people figured out yet that guitars have a timbre that cuts through the mix easily but keyboards do not. 99% of bands wash out the keyboards almost entirely - despite how critical they may be to parts. Dream Theater manages to put the keys at a resonable volume and not be guitar selfish - but they are really the only ones I can think of that pull that off. You know somthing is wrong when the keyboardist begins to solo and you can't hear it until the engineer flips on a HUGE volume boost. Get it together metal bands/venues!

 

[King Lek]

Amen!

 

[Yippee38]

This has been a gripe of mine for a long time. I've seen a few shows lately that were really well mixed and at a reasonable volume. It was nice to be able to hear clearly without having to put in earplugs.

I talked to a friend of mine who is a VERY experienced sound engineer in the Chicago area. His opinion is that the problem generally lies with the sound engineer. He believes that most sound engineers haven't been taught how to properly mix shows, so they crank of the bass and the volume. They are basically doing what they think sounds good in their car stereos.

Although I agree with you that the sound at PP is generally better than for most shows, I do also feel that the volume does not have to be as high as it usually is. We, the PP audience as a whole, are generally more appreciative of the the music than your average concert-goer. I know I'd love to be able to listen to the whole show without earplugs, and I suspect that many of us PP attendees feel the same, but that hasn't happened yet. We are in that venue for at least six hours, two days in a row. At the volume levels used, for that length of time, hearing damage is a given. It sure would be cool to be able to hear the whole show without it being muffled by earplugs.

 

[AMBR]

I love Children of Bodom, but when you are up so loud it becomes really hard to actually hear what is going on unless you know the song well enough to follow along. Solos end up sounding like brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, either up or down. And dammit, haven't people figured out yet that guitars have a timbre that cuts through the mix easily but keyboards do not. 99% of bands wash out the keyboards almost entirely - despite how critical they may be to parts. Dream Theater manages to put the keys at a resonable volume and not be guitar selfish - but they are really the only ones I can think of that pull that off. You know somthing is wrong when the keyboardist begins to solo and you can't hear it until the engineer flips on a HUGE volume boost. Get it together metal bands/venues!

You are so right on that. Keyboards are soo often totally lost or leap in at odd moments when they get a boost. I've bought several pairs of "relatively" expensive ear plugs trying to hear the music and NOT hear that infernal buzz in my ears all the next day. Still, the sound is never the same or what it should be. Thanks for the warning about CoB. I'm seeing them tonight and will be sure to come prepared.

 

[St Enigma]

Bad live mix is always a big problem, but there are more than one factor to cause the chaotic results. Simply turning it down will not do any good.

Small venues consisting of uneven indoor space are always tricky places for the sound engineer: A good sound achieved at the afternoon sound check in the empty venue may turn blurry when the venue is packed with acoustically absobing human bodies. The crowd itself is a big source of problem making sometimes hellish noise and blanket the sound or certain parts of the mix:

From Maiden Norway - The Premiere Source For Iron Maiden News! - Nicko's McBrains Diary - Italy

Well, we played in Milano last night and I have to say that the audience, were at one time louder than us. They came in at 112 DBs and we are at around 107/110. ‘Kin loud I can tell you.

In most clubs the stage is way too small and the audience can get too close to it. The best spot soundwise is always where the mixing table is located, whic usually is the acoustic center far from and straight in front of the stage. Standing too close between the speakers or far on either sides will have the effect like hearing mono sound or only one channel in stereo.

It is as much to the education and professional level of the sound engineer as to the available equipment if the problems caused by multiple factors can be solved. Cranking up the volume is always the cheap shortcut for unprofessionals, but if both the venue and the gears are bad, then even a pro can't "twist gold from s*it".

.

 

[Wayniac]

You are so right on that. Keyboards are soo often totally lost or leap in at odd moments when they get a boost. I've bought several pairs of "relatively" expensive ear plugs trying to hear the music and NOT hear that infernal buzz in my ears all the next day. Still, the sound is never the same or what it should be. Thanks for the warning about CoB. I'm seeing them tonight and will be sure to come prepared.

Google H.E.A.R..... Hearing Education and Awareness for Rockers. Look into custom plugs.. they attentuate all frequencies evenly, so it is like turning the sound down. I have a pair and swear by them.. the only time they suck is if you have to sing while they are in.. THAT takes some getting used to
Expensive, but well worth it...
The same company will also make custom molds for your iPod, or any other device that needs an ear mold

 

[Cheiron]

I agree. However, here are some exceptions from this year concerts.

Dragonforce -- They had excellent sound at the Masquerade in Atlanta. I took out the ear plugs to hear them better. But everything was clear as hell. Made the show great. They didn't seem to try to be 'loud'.

Circus Maximus -- I don't know if I've ever heard better sound during a show. (The other bands that had great sound at PP were Theocracy, Leatherwolf, Circle II Circle, Jorn, Freak Kitchen, Thunderstone, Epica.... bands that tried to crank it too far up were Mercenary and Evergrey.)

Blind Guardian -- Beautiful sound at the Roxy. I did not need ear plugs at all. I was so impressed (the last time I went to the Roxy the sound was horrid).

 

[Theandromedastrain]

I agree with you man, many metal bands do need to take it easy. and yea, blind guardians sound was really good when i saw them live in Philly. = )
and yes progpower's sound is amazing! the only thing i dislike about progpower is when they do a dvd (the lights)

 

[Bryan316]

Okay. Lemme argue in defense of the venues.


The sound board guy is the one who controls the volume. He needs to set up the sound for three things:

1. So the people at the back of the venue can still hear the music.

2. So the sound quality is as good as he can hear it, FROM HIS SOUND BOARD. He cannot possibly know the sound quality of every venue on the tour, where the bass reflects terribly, where the high-end dies out, what the room will sound like once humans have filled the room, and what the house's PA system even sounds like in some cases.

3. He's gotta get the band loud enough so that a screaming audience doesn't drown out the band.


Yeah, I don't like loud-as-a-space-shuttle-launch environments. But the sound guy can't just serve the needs of the guys up front against the rail. He's gotta make it sound best for everyone considered.

Yes, I agree that some bands have way too much low end in their tone. It's happening a lot lately, cuz that's the in thing to do. And besides, more low end does sound rich and thick. But not many bands take the time to set their rigs up to sound good to a person standing 20 feet in front of them without ear plugs. They set their gear to sound good for them when they're standing right in front of their own gear.

I've heard plenty of local bands with rookies that have their amps cranked with the same settings they have when they're practicing in their bedroom. They don't even consider the tonal differences of playing at medium volume in their bedroom, and playing full blast in a club. They don't realise that keeping the same tonal settings at low volume sound HORRENDOUS at full blast. They just jump on stage, roll up the volume, and go right at it.

I've heard terribly painful guitar tone from guys who don't know how to tweak their gear carefully. They'll have a huge amount of buzz in their tone that's just painfully harsh to the human ear. They don't bother to walk away and listen to their tone from a distance, to tell if it sounds like crap at full volume or if they could dial out some of the painful frequencies.

Not every band out there gets their tone sounding perfectly balanced and carefully tweaked like Dream Theater or TSO. Not every club has a sound guy with healthy, unabused ears and no hearing damage. And not every venue is acoustically balanced by a sound engineer with experience in making a room sound its best.

 

[Jibrille]

I agree. However, here are some exceptions from this year concerts.

Dragonforce -- They had excellent sound at the Masquerade in Atlanta. I took out the ear plugs to hear them better. But everything was clear as hell. Made the show great. They didn't seem to try to be 'loud'.

Blind Guardian -- Beautiful sound at the Roxy. I did not need ear plugs at all. I was so impressed (the last time I went to the Roxy the sound was horrid).

I saw Dragonforce and the sound was horrible. I could barely hear all of the next day and I was standing toward the back. A lot of it was muffled and you could hardly hear the singer. Though I can say honestly, the place they were at is HORRIBLE for concerts even though it's probably the most popular club in the area. It's just not designed well. I was only at the show for part of the previous band's set and that was spent by the bar, and left right after Dragonforce, as they weren't the headliner. Still was a great show because of the energy alone but the mix was aweful.

I do however agree about Blind Guardian. Beautiful sound. The funny thing is that Leaves Eyes was the exact opposite. I couldn't hear Liv, the bass was too high, etc.

 

[SharkBlack]

I've been to a gazillion concerts and loudness and bad sound just don't seem to be related. Some of the loudest concerts I've been to were also the clearest. For example Armored Saint in the 80s and Soundgarden were two very loud bands and each time I saw them they were Fuggin Loud but the sound was perfect and made for a very intense experience. When my chest is vibrating to the bass I dig it. I may be wearing heaing aids when I get a little older but I've never had to wear ear plugs nor would I want to..... But that's just meeeeee

 

[Braxil]

1. So the people at the back of the venue can still hear the music.

2. So the sound quality is as good as he can hear it, FROM HIS SOUND BOARD. He cannot possibly know the sound quality of every venue on the tour, where the bass reflects terribly, where the high-end dies out, what the room will sound like once humans have filled the room, and what the house's PA system even sounds like in some cases.

3. He's gotta get the band loud enough so that a screaming audience doesn't drown out the band.

This is the reality of the situation. Sometimes it means you'll have to wear earplugs if you're up front, big deal. All of the complaints mentioned in this thread become non-issues if you position yourself in the back and more or less the center. Unless you have an especially awesome venue, you have to make audio quality sacrifices if you're going to be up in the front.

 

[SyXified]

I agree with you that if you are going to be up front you have to make audio quality sacrifices. In fact, when I saw Gamma Ray at PP3 I spent the first half up front so I could participate and slap five with Kai, and during the second half I retreated to the very back of the floor to get a better overall sonic picture. In fact, I've done that a several concerts when available to split the difference between the live experience as participatory and as sonically excellent.

But the problem with 'loudness' rests almost primarily in the bass end. When a punchy kick drum hits you in the chest that's fucking awesome. However, the second it goes from low end 'punchiness' to low end wash, those wide bass frequencies mess up the whole frequency range because the ear drum cannot deal with them and assimilates them into a series of overtones that color the mid/high end spectrum that belongs to other instruments. And bass frequencies are non directional - which means that if you fuck em up for the front row, you pretty much equally fucked them up for the back row. When I had my first experience recording an album, we mixed the V drums in stereo (which was dumb) and we found that while the bass drum had a nice punch to it, the low floor toms washed EVERYTHING else out when hit.

Sound engineers shouldn't be creating a good sound for an empty club - they should be creating a good sound for a packed club - and that means having foresight and maybe over adjusting during the sound check. You want good sound during the show, it doesn't matter if that means it sounds odd or even like ass during the sound check. When you record guitar you always lay off the reverb a bit more than you'd like when recording cause you plan ahead and know you are going to warm it up and saturate it later and you don't want it to sound like a canyon. And honestly, bands have to be somewhat responsible for their live sound. If that is your life pursuit, and you know sounding good is important to you, you should learn a thing or two about sound and be able to tell the engineer well before hand how you want to be mixed. These days everyone's wireless... how hard is it to have one guy dart out into the middle of the venue while playing his guitar part and make necessary adjustments during sound check? When you master a CD, they click between mixes representing various EQs and sound systems to attain a sound that is a good quality compromise for all of them. That way you don't sound like a peach on a $3000 system and like complete ass on a car stereo.

When I saw Boston and The Tweeter Center (very large venue), I was in the back row of the whole place and I could hear absolutly fine. And when I checked how it sounded up front, it was still damn good. And they have like 4 guitars, keys, and 3 vocal harmonies going on often. Metal bands should logically be able to attain that same balance - that's the same cast of instruments! It can be done!

 

[adaher]

I agree completely. The non-metal shows I've been to have so much better sound quality than the metal shows. I know that someone here will say "It's a metal show, stupid!" but geez, metal is so much more complex and sonically diverse now than it used to be. It's not just wailing guitars and high pitched vocals anymore. So maybe bands should consider turning it down so that the more subtle sounds don't get lost in the mix.

 

[acidbasement]

Yup, metal concerts sure have crappy sound quality, especially given how good the sound ought to be in order for the audience to appreciate the musical complexity that is becoming the norm in this genre. I agree that it's largely due to volume, but it's not quite so simple as just asking the engineer to turn it down. I agree partially with Bryan316 - the band does have to drown out the screaming crowd, but most bands go above and beyond the volume required for this. I believe a large part of the problem is volume onstage.

1. Drums: drums can be LOUD, and metal drummers almost always play them very loud. As good as loud drumming sounds (those toms just don't sing as sweetly when played quiet), it is a problem for FOH as well as monitor mixing. If an engineer wants to EQ the drums, they have to be coming out of the speakers loudly in order to drown out their unamplified sound. Plexiglass sound-sheilds can diminish volume coming off the drums, but it's not perfect and it doesn't look badass besides.

2. Amp placement and volume: doesn't that huge stack of speakers next to the guitarist look totally awesome and rockin'? The way they look is the only reason for them to be pointed directly toward the audience. If a musician needs to crank up the volume in order to achieve the desired tone, s/he should at least have the decency to point the speaker in a sideways direction, so as not to screw up the mix and/or cause the engineer to turn everything else up to compensate.

In general, the quieter a band can be onstage, the greater their potential to sound good to the audience. An artist cannot paint a masterpiece without a blank canvass to start with, and likewise even the best sound engineer in the world cannot fulfill his/her vision of how a concert should sound if the band insists on drowning him/her out.

I know it's tough to imagine a metal band playing quietly, so I'm not sure how to solve this dilemma. Maybe if everyone in the audience was issued high quality wireless noise-cancelling headphones at the door?

 

[sccaldwell]

Couldn't agree more!!

Also, why have it so loud that most of the audience feels the need to wear earplugs? I don't care what earplugs you wear, the show doesn't sound as good with them (noticeable loss of high end and muddies the sound), but I don't care how much I love a band, I won't damage my hearing for a concert. Ever.

Craig

 

[Exploding Ned]

Syxified has made many good points. The volume should be decreased a bit, the low end shouldn't turn the whole sound into a huge pile of mud flying from the speakers into your ear, and the high and mids should be brought forward in the mix. At BG in Atl., I was right next to the soundboard, and it still wasn't that great of a mix. The vocals barely made it above the rest of the mix, sometimes were barely audible, and the guitar solos were many times lost in the mix. Sometimes the same thing happens at PP, but as Glen has said unless you wanna wait an hour between bands, there's not much chance of getting it exact. Also, the point made about bands should be responsible about their sound is dead on. Why go to the trouble of touring if you're putting a bad impression on your fans? I would always go into the audience when I played live, during a guitar solo or two, to see what it sounded like, and would definately order the soundman to fix any problems right away. How many times have we went to shows and agreed we liked the band but that the sound wasn't right? Many times the soundman just doesn't have that good of a set of ears. I know I am probably too meticulous in that dept., but it's always better to overdo good sound mixing than the other direction. Drums shouldn't sound like mud, they should be clear and crisp. Even bass guitar can be very present in the mix and not be overblown. All it comes down to is just taking a step back and re-evaluating the mix as a whole, and not trying to make huge volume/low end be the slave to making the band sound huge on stage.

 

[AMBR]

OK, all I have to add to this is CoB's sound tonight freaking slammed into your chest and reverberated off every part of your body. I started out in the photo pit, retreated to about half way back of the pack and eventually escaped to the concourse. This is a larger venue than most metal shows, (Nokia Theater - 2100) but really, it was too damn loud. I had high quality ear protection and my ears were ok, sound - eh; vocals? Heard so little. Ease up!!! They had a great energetic/dynamic show, but I don't like feeling like I'm being hit with a defibrillator and I missed a lot of the music.

 

[Bryan316]

SyXified, while I agree with your statements, I also have to say it is VERY difficult to tweak a band's sound at sound check, and also anticipate how a building's acoustics will play once people have filled in. I wouldn't want to do it. That's gotta be such a taxing situation. You could get a decent mix at sound check, and as soon as the place fills up, everything could change in ways you didn't expect. I mean, yeah, bodies kill some of the reverberation and echoing, but maybe it also makes the hi-hats disappear, or the vocals lose clarity, or all the bass gets boosted or maybe even cut out. It's a very organic, dynamic effort to tweak a show as it starts, and there's no true science behind it. You can't go to a venue and ask them, "Hey, got a schematic of the soundwaves of your building?" to predict how things will change.

I've got a lot of respect for sound guys who do their jobs well. But they're few and far between. And Glenn's soundman takes quite a lot of flak here, but I think he does an amazing job for a ton of bands with a scary amount of tonal variety. It's a tough, tough job.

 

[SymphonyOfDreams]

Well... down here in local shows we have to deal with all kinds of sound problems, and when being constantly in that kind of problem, you tend to get very involved in the overall sound and work to get the best sound you can out of the piss poor equipment we can afford.

1- Probably the most important thing is the band itself, how they play, and how well do they know their sound. If you know your amp and pre-amp settings to a tee, how do you want your sound to come out, if the effects and such are leveled (you cant imagine the amount of times sound sucks just because the volume in the rhythm distortion is considerably higher than the lead's distortion volume). And also it depends alot on how tight they are overall as a band... enough for all things to define clearly in the mix.

2- As opposed to what seems to be the norm over there, down here the sound is waaaay too trebbly... (too much high end), wich works to get some definition out of the drums (the kick drums sound like a hammer hitting a brick wall) but it's a little tricky when dealing with guitars as they get too muddy and painfull to the ears, considering most of the time we have to deal with Marshall amps (they should change the name to TREBBLE) and/or Zoom 505 effects or underused/badly used GT-6 or distortion pedals and stuff... so sound mixers here have to work with a wide range of bad sounds and try to make it work for every event, wich doesn't happend.

3- The soundcheck is vital! though it's hard to do it properly in an empty venue, you can get an overall perspective of the acoustics but you will have to do some twitching during the show to adjust to the new conditions (the crowd).

You cannot imagine how difficult is working the sound for a metal concert here in the Dominican Republic, it's truly a learning experience on how to deal with extreme situations... we've (my band) been working with our own live mixer for more than 1 year and 6 months, after having some bad experience with terrible sound, and it's been great! since the people who organize the events pay for the sound equipment and stuff (and considering this country we cant force them to pay huge money for the sound we want) we have the mix guy who knows our sound, how to mix it live under any circumstance, consoles, or equipment (you cant imagine the sound equipment we've had to deal with)... so there's a lot of factors around a sound, 1) the band, 2)the equipment, 3) who mixes it, 4) the venue.