regurgitating the fruit of the tree of knowledge

[einride]

Cioran is metal

he's a cool guy he tells it like it is

EDIT: I EDITED AWAY ALL THE OTHER SHIT IN THIS POST BECAUSE I'M VERY TIRED AND I WASN'T SURE I WAS MAKING SENSE

 

[lurch70]

i think the biggest issue I have with is the seeking "truth" part ... I think the word "answer" could be substituted more effectively

 

[Krilons Resa]

Zen

 

[lurch70]

i was thinking more about "answers" that we seek for ourselves not for the rest of the world. "Truths" I always felt were more concrete things, like 2+2 is 4 or dorian is a stud

 

[MajestikMøøse]

i don't think this is ideally the case. but it sounds cute,

precisely.

 

[dorian gray]

hahaha Aurel and Ken own this thread already

 

[Conspicuously Absent]

Stop typing like that. Its really pretentious.

stop typing. its really annoying.

i don't think this is ideally the case. it sounds cute, and i'm sure it applies often to folks like arthur himself but there are so many shades of grey, and even maybe a third pole of happiness and contentment?

Sadly the old saying ignorance is bliss is one of the "ultimate truths" (ala religion). The people who never even come far enough to think of asking these questions, and instead blindly believe what they are told, are the ones are happiest in life.

Unless you live in Orwell's world.

 

[Ellestin]

I would tend to agree with Schoppy seeing as "boredom and suffering" are the two pillars of human condition and "happiness, contentment, whatever" a mere transitional state achievable through luck, exertion or self-delusion of some kind. Some people certainly manage to live most of their life between perpetual glee and a couple fortuitous lows now and then, but I do believe that boredom/dullness is the "basic" condition when you take away all the (artificial) rest. In a word I do not believe in the bliss of ignorance. I'm sure Schopenhauer is in total disagreement with that interpretation

 

[Demilich]

what truths would you hope to attain knowledge of by studying philosophy? would knowing these truths improve your life? have we come significantly closer to any universal truth since, say, ancient greece? how?

i don't read philosophical texts very often at all, but when i did, i wasn't seeking truths, only knowledge. not at all about seeking any pipe-dream of universality, more a matter of "catching up" with the classic thinkers who were often much more realistic than those of our day.

those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat its failures, or something.

 

[Nico]

Only death is real?

We build systems of idealism upon which to preconclude questions we don't even have the capacity to approach an answer to. Would the answer to the fundamental questions of life and existence in any way satisfy us? Would it change the way we, as indivuals, or even as a society, went forward in the future? Doubtfully, of course. What is revelation except an interpretation - an opinion to be opposed through alternate interpretations or ignorance.

I'm struggling to even find a point to this thread, other than "what's the point?". What is the point Eric?

 

[einride]

I've always felt that the "answers" and "truths" provided by religions for existential questions are simply answering unknowns with more unknowns, leading to a zero sum game where the only thing accomplished is a further waste of precious time and the creation of arrogant believers who profess answers where there are only more questions!

well, i totally agree. so now, can we take the next step and say that not only religion, but also philosophy, holds no actual answers or truths that are pragmatically helpful? is it not arrogance to adhere to any system of philosophy?

Sadly the old saying ignorance is bliss is one of the "ultimate truths" (ala religion). The people who never even come far enough to think of asking these questions, and instead blindly believe what they are told, are the ones are happiest in life.

the only people who are happy in adhering to a religion are the ones who don't really know what the fuck they're doing. the only good christians are the ones that have never read the bible.

the religious man, once he starts educating himself about his faith and becomes a theologian, gets filled with doubts and questions without answers, starts building sandcastles of rhetoric to defend himself, and ends up even worse off than the philosopher, because his system of belief is so fundamentally fucking stupid.

i don't read philosophical texts very often at all, but when i did, i wasn't seeking truths, only knowledge. not at all about seeking any pipe-dream of universality, more a matter of "catching up" with the classic thinkers who were often much more realistic than those of our day.

those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat its failures, or something.

well, sure, i can totally understand that. don't you ever feel that you're left with more questions than you started with, though? knowledge is worthless if not beneficial in any practical way.

i see philosophy as being fundamentally limited by human capabilities though and as such, an endless and increasingly verbose repetition of failures.

Only death is real?

probably! but it is a waste of life to think like that. since we can not grasp any truths about the nature of life and death on an intuitive level we should live our lives as if life was the only thing that mattered, even if logic etc. tells us otherwise.

We build systems of idealism upon which to preconclude questions we don't even have the capacity to approach an answer to. Would the answer to the fundamental questions of life and existence in any way satisfy us?

right, and why do we do this? the entire point of the thread (to answer your question below) is that 1) i think seeking the answers are detrimental to the self and/or society and 2) the question: do you think it is possible to "go back?" after your mind has been poisoned with the pursuit of a, perhaps not nonexistent but merely incomprehensible truth, can you consciously "unlearn" all the things you've taught yourself that ended up only adding to your confusion?

What is revelation except an interpretation - an opinion to be opposed through alternate interpretations or ignorance.

and this is why metaphysics and epistemology have gotten essentially nowhere in thousands of years. many things have been proven but nothing of actual value. i guess i have a very pragmatic view of philosophy -- if its ultimate goal is not changing the way the individual, or society, moves forward, then what is the point? philosophy is vanity. we are not happier than the ancient greek so why should not all philosophy be ignored?

 

[En Vind Av Sorg]

You know, I wish it was more socially acceptable to strike up a conversation with someone on a topic such as this. Speaking about such issues in this format is all well and good, but I find I normally enjoy and take more away from a face to face discussion. My brain is not quite awake enough for this discussion though, maybe I'll come back to this tonight.

 

[Conspicuously Absent]

well, i totally agree. so now, can we take the next step and say that not only religion, but also philosophy, holds no actual answers or truths that are pragmatically helpful? is it not arrogance to adhere to any system of philosophy?

It encourages thinking and learning and asking why about everything, which I can't help but say in the end, is a good thing. Rather than accepting that Zeus sends rain and thunder and Poseidon thought your brother was a dick and drowned him.

the only people who are happy in adhering to a religion are the ones who don't really know what the fuck they're doing. the only good christians are the ones that have never read the bible.

the religious man, once he starts educating himself about his faith and becomes a theologian, gets filled with doubts and questions without answers, starts building sandcastles of rhetoric to defend himself, and ends up even worse off than the philosopher, because his system of belief is so fundamentally fucking stupid.

Hence ignorant: Jim Three-teeth isn't going ot learn about his religion, he can't even read. He's also quite happy (fucking his daughter, beating his wife, pickign his nose, whatever) with his simple life.

You know, I wish it was more socially acceptable to strike up a conversation with someone on a topic such as this. Speaking about such issues in this format is all well and good, but I find I normally enjoy and take more away from a face to face discussion. My brain is not quite awake enough for this discussion though, maybe I'll come back to this tonight.

Same.

 

[Crimson Velvet]

At a certain point, these questions becomes little more than exercises in tedium and futility, especially when you've arrived at the point where you realize that life is little more than a long string of events during which you selfishly attempt to squeeze out as much personal enjoyment as possible, with little or no regard to anything beyond your personal horizons, metaphysics and morality be damned. But to unlearn something? Surely, self-induced unawareness is hardly something new in this world. Passing on the obvious jokes about alcohol and drugs, I recommend a long life of monotone work hours, destructive and pointless relationships, lots of TV and bad books, and so on and so forth. Apathy induced by exhaustion will sneak up before you know it.

 

[einride]

At a certain point, these questions becomes little more than exercises in tedium and futility, especially when you've arrived at the point where you realize that life is little more than a long string of events during which you selfishly attempt to squeeze out as much personal enjoyment as possible, with little or no regard to anything beyond your personal horizons, metaphysics and morality be damned. But to unlearn something? Surely, self-induced unawareness is hardly something new in this world. Passing on the obvious jokes about alcohol and drugs, I recommend a long life of monotone work hours, destructive and pointless relationships, lots of TV and bad books, and so on and so forth. Apathy induced by exhaustion will sneak up before you know it.

haha just as a side note, what's up with you sounding so bitter all the time lately

 

[Crimson Velvet]

I think I just happen to come on UM when I'm in a bad mood. At least I hope so, haha

 

[Demilich]

well, sure, i can totally understand that. don't you ever feel that you're left with more questions than you started with, though? knowledge is worthless if not beneficial in any practical way.

i see philosophy as being fundamentally limited by human capabilities though and as such, an endless and increasingly verbose repetition of failures.

knowledge is worthless if not practical? i can NOT in any way get behind such a banal notion. the knowledge and ideas i take away from the texts i do occasionally read is interesting in the sense of pure trivia. it is useless only insofar as life is defined by its pragmatic and tacticle aspects.

maybe i am left with more questions than answers, but i'm not looking for answers. in essence, i'm not even looking for knowledge, and i regret using that word in my previous post. i read (and SHOULD be reading much more) to expose my mind to ideas i hadn't previously considered. i may not take away answers from these exploits. what i gain, however, is an alternate perspective or insight into how i approach the world, adding to my own and preparing me for new things, etc.

as usual i don't really have my thoughts together so i don't know how to wrap this up but to say "The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing." Cliche, for sure, but true all the same.

 

[Krilons Resa]

Eric is speaking of modern, for the most part post-renaissance, philosophy. ie Analytical

He also needs to step off a 100-foot pole.

 

[lurch70]

what I find ironic is that he is always bringing these random things up himself, when he seems to be so against them.
it takes way too much energy to think of all this shit.

boobs, beer, good times ... the rest is just means to attain them.

 

[Krilons Resa]

Like everything else in this world, Eric is one big fucking paradox.