reparations: awesome or totally gay?

[Cythraul]

So today I was thumbing through a journal (Journal of Social Philosophy) I picked up at my department and the theme of the issue happened to be 'reparations' and it got me thinking about negros and reparations for slavery (and how they're breathing all the white man's air). Some people think that the black community should get reparations for the past injustice of slavery (this movement seems to have died down in the past few years though). In order to get clear on the reasoning behind reparations claims, and what's at stake in debates over reparations, consider the following scenario:

Smith walks into Jones' house and proceeds to smash all his beautiful antiques. He then steals all of Jones' cash and lights his baby on fire before leaving. Clearly an injustice has been committed against Jones and his baby. This injustice ought to be rectified. The person who ought to be held accountable is Smith, and the people to benefit from the "reparation" are Jones and his baby.

So what's going on in reparations claims is similar to what's going on in the case above (but there are important differences, which I'll talk about shortly): First of all, it is claimed that some injustice was committed against some group of people during some time during the past. Secondly, it is claimed that this injustice ought to be rectified through reparations. What's different, and problematic, about many cases where reparations might seem appropriate is that it's quite often not all that clear who should be responsible to give out the reparations. That is, it's not clear in these cases who the analog to Smith is supposed to be. This is because often the people who would've obviously owed the reparations are not around anymore. The same problem arises when trying to determine who is owed the reparations. Who is owed the reparations given that, often, the people who would've obviously been owed the reparations are not around anymore? Who is owed? Their descendants? Why? So the problem is that in many of these sorts of cases there is no clear Smith and no clear Jones.

So the question is, how does one go about answering these questions? Should there even be reparations in these sorts of cases?

 

[unknown]

I don't know. It seems really shallow to me. "We're sorry you were slaves, so here's a check for $500." It's just throwing money around. I mean yes, we can all agree that slavery as an institution was wrong, and there have been numerous apologies (at least at the government level), and it's pretty much taught, I hope, in every history class that it was pretty bad stuff.

I have hard time believing though the families had any valuables or things of the sort. Often, the slaves were picked up right out of Africa with nothing but the clothes on their backs (sometimes less), shipped over, and whoever survived was sold as is. At least that's how I remember it...been a few years since I took a history course. Now, if while they were working on the plantations they acquired some valuables or even family heirlooms that were handed down that were destroyed, that's terrible. But you can't put a price on something like a doll or cookware handed down from ancestors. There's too much emotional value attached to it. And how do they know what was lost/destroyed? Were there inventory lists?

I don't know. It's just indicative of the American culture. "We're sorry for screwing over. Go buy yourself a flat screen tv."

 

[MasterOLightning]

The thing is, when considering reparations, you just can't stop at slavery. You have to consider everything up to and after the 1960s that was done to disadvantage blacks. When it comes to things like redlining, there are indeed people alive who were badly hurt by this. A lot of us are lucky that our parents and grandparents will leave us money through property assets one way or another, but redlining policies were blatantly discriminatory and made property ownership inordinately difficult for blacks. Not something you can hold the government responsible for (arguable), but I could see there being a civil suit against banks and institutions that have records of redlining. Now isn't such a great time for those guys, but I'm sure there are records from the post-WWII era that show their mortgage habits.

As for slavery reparations in particular, it's incredibly difficult, since it's tough to prove slave ancestry. Does everyone named Jenkins get something? If you moved here from Ghana 15 years ago, no, you're not getting anything. I agree with Unknown's point that money is unsatisfactory. I do think that affirmative action is the type of gesture that makes sense. I approve of this. Blacks have not had equal opportunities, and AA helps swing things the other way.

I recall in a social inequality course that we seemed to agree that free education through college was the best course, since it discouraged free riders, and set up the potential to help blacks down the road. A one time lump sum gets frittered away, but education pays dividends over a lifetime. In addition, helping to educate a group of people who are typically uneducated is a social good, that should work to reduce crime and poverty, which is something that whites might find worth tax dollars, whereas $1000 to spend on Corvoisier and new rims might not.

 

[genocide roach]

short answer: totally gay
~gR~

 

[King Richard]

Wait a second...you aren't even full-blooded white Cyth. Stop breathing my air you spic!

 

[AchrisK]

So the question is, how does one go about answering these questions? Should there even be reparations in these sorts of cases?

No

 

[zabu of nΩd]

It could be argued that our welfare and public education programs are reparations enough.

 

[Belligerent]

Some people think that the black community should get reparations for the past injustice of slavery

Absolutely not, in no way shape or form. They are given enough handouts as it is.

 

[Zephyrus]

There are a lot more poor white people than Black people.

@ Virus-Granty

 

[skeptik]

I don't think that black people today should get reparations for slavery. I think that we should be cognizant of the circumstances in today's environment that are a result of a history of slavery and see to it that they are treated equitably today. I don't think that they should formally be given an upper hand, for instance the general notion that people have of "affirmative action," namely that if two people are equally qualified for a job and one is a minority, that the minority will get the job. But I would like to see informal means of raising up the culture and mentality that is rooted in many struggling communities which perpetuate financial, educational, and criminal misfortunes so that the cycle can be broken. By this I mean social interactivity programs, focusing on empowering children in underprivileged neighborhoods to have the desire and ambition to become better than their environment would otherwise allow them to be. I think that is greater than any "reparation" we as a nation could give, unless you want to call this itself a reparation.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

There are a lot more poor white people than Black people.

@ Virus-Granty

I would think that a higher proportion of blacks are poor though. My point is that those blacks who are still struggling to overcome the inequality imposed upon them in the past have in fact been given a lot of handouts from the government, so we essentially are paying them reparations.

I don't think that black people today should get reparations for slavery. I think that we should be cognizant of the circumstances in today's environment that are a result of a history of slavery and see to it that they are treated equitably today. I don't think that they should formally be given an upper hand, for instance the general notion that people have of "affirmative action," namely that if two people are equally qualified for a job and one is a minority, that the minority will get the job. But I would like to see informal means of raising up the culture and mentality that is rooted in many struggling communities which perpetuate financial, educational, and criminal misfortunes so that the cycle can be broken. By this I mean social interactivity programs, focusing on empowering children in underprivileged neighborhoods to have the desire and ambition to become better than their environment would otherwise allow them to be. I think that is greater than any "reparation" we as a nation could give, unless you want to call this itself a reparation.

De-shittifying inner city public schools would probably be the best way to achieve this. Renovate and beautify them, increase police presence, give them decent teachers, and fund extracurricular activities. I think that's the best sort of reparation blacks could hope to get.

 

[Belligerent]

My point is that those blacks who are still struggling to overcome the inequality imposed upon them in the past have in fact been given a lot of handouts from the government, so we essentially are paying them reparations.

exactly

 

[Einherjar86]

I don't think that black people today should get reparations for slavery. I think that we should be cognizant of the circumstances in today's environment that are a result of a history of slavery and see to it that they are treated equitably today. I don't think that they should formally be given an upper hand, for instance the general notion that people have of "affirmative action," namely that if two people are equally qualified for a job and one is a minority, that the minority will get the job. But I would like to see informal means of raising up the culture and mentality that is rooted in many struggling communities which perpetuate financial, educational, and criminal misfortunes so that the cycle can be broken. By this I mean social interactivity programs, focusing on empowering children in underprivileged neighborhoods to have the desire and ambition to become better than their environment would otherwise allow them to be. I think that is greater than any "reparation" we as a nation could give, unless you want to call this itself a reparation.

This is basically what I believe. You can't blame the descendents of slave-holders for what their ancestors did. At the same time, we have to recognize the long-term effects of what slavery has done to the blacks in this country, and somehow we should try and fix that.

Granted, I have no solution that will appease everyone. I don't think there is one.

 

[SentinelSlain]

I think it would be a distraction from the more pressing matter of helping the poor, in general.

 

[King Richard]

You mean, helping the helpless poor right?

 

[genocide roach]

Granted, I have no solution that will appease everyone. I don't think there is one.

genocide
~gR~

 

[Dak]

What doesn't help matters is the self appointed "black leaders" (like Louis Farrakhan or Al Sharpton) that constantly spew racially charged garbage to keep the victim mentality firmly in place (and the money coming in).

On top of that you have BET glorifying the thug/gangbanger lifestyle. How many blacks want to grow up and look/carry themselves like Barack Obama or MLK, and how many want to grow up and be a carbon copy of Snoop or 50CENT.

 

[MasterOLightning]

I would think that a higher proportion of blacks are poor though. My point is that those blacks who are still struggling to overcome the inequality imposed upon them in the past have in fact been given a lot of handouts from the government, so we essentially are paying them reparations.

But if you're just talking about the same entitlements that are handed out across the board, then they aren't getting anything extra. As I stated previously, in a good post that no one read, discriminating practices did not end with slavery, and continue in some form today. The handouts you mention are like giving band aids to cancer patients. Public housing as it currently exists is not a solution.

De-shittifying inner city public schools would probably be the best way to achieve this. Renovate and beautify them, increase police presence, give them decent teachers, and fund extracurricular activities. I think that's the best sort of reparation blacks could hope to get.

Public schools already receive a ridiculous amount of money. Around here, Catholic schools have older and crappier facilities and materials, teachers get paid far less, and the number of dollars spent per student is much lower, yet they significantly outperform public schools. Pumping more money into public schools is not a solution.

 

[cookiecutter]

I agree with Dodens. The unfortunate legacy of slavery and the racial discrimination that continued and continues is that black people are per capita poorer than whites (and I think every other minority group but I could be wrong). Helping the poor will in effect be helping correct this legacy while at the same time not discriminating against poor of other races.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

But if you're just talking about the same entitlements that are handed out across the board, then they aren't getting anything extra. As I stated previously, in a good post that no one read, discriminating practices did not end with slavery, and continue in some form today. The handouts you mention are like giving band aids to cancer patients. Public housing as it currently exists is not a solution.

That sounds more like a problem with the way the government programs are set up than with the principle behind my point. We certainly don't need to be paying reparations to the blacks who are living successful middle-to-upper class lives. If there's any point to any conceivable reparations payment, it's to help out the people who continue to be disadvantaged by the aftereffects of slavery. Where else would that money go but to the poor?

Public schools already receive a ridiculous amount of money. Around here, Catholic schools have older and crappier facilities and materials, teachers get paid far less, and the number of dollars spent per student is much lower, yet they significantly outperform public schools. Pumping more money into public schools is not a solution.

Yeah, I'm certainly no authority on our public school situation. And it may well be that conditions in the neighborhoods and homes where these kids live has more of an effect on their ability to advance in society than their school conditions do.

I agree with Dodens. The unfortunate legacy of slavery and the racial discrimination that continued and continues is that black people are per capita poorer than whites (and I think every other minority group but I could be wrong). Helping the poor will in effect be helping correct this legacy while at the same time not discriminating against poor of other races.

Yeah, that's a good way to put it.