satanism

[Heliologue]

Mikael once wrote:

"Don´t you think we´d be better off if we had blastbeats and satanic lyrics instead......but we just don´t! The day we would limit ourselves or adapt to the music scene, would be the day Opeth dies. "

Satanism seems to be a really popular shtick in the metal scene. In some cases, it's very obvious, as with, oh, Marduk or Dark Funeral, but it's also reaching into mainstream metal such as Slipknot, who feature "666 Sic" and pictures of goats on their new album.

Is it really that? A shtick? Or do a lot of bands truly worship Satan? If some bands do it simply because they think it sounds cool, why are those considered to be talented, when a band like Opeth manages without it.

It's been my experience (with a few exceptions) that so-called Satanic bands tend to be less talented anyway.

Any thoughts on the matter?

 

[luke]

In my experience, it seems to be that bands that portray themselves as Satanists, and write blatantly inflammatory lyrics tend to be short on the talent end of things. They also seem more likely to be American (no offense intended but) which to me seems to also be a factor in whether or not they are talented. Don't get me wrong, there are some VERY good bands from the US, but the ones that seem to be more popular, can't always handle their instruments that well. IMO European artists tend to be more versed with the technichal aspects of songwriting.
I do appreciate well written lyrics that urge one to question one's beliefs, but the shit Marilyn Manson spews out (High Preist in the Church of Media Made Musicians) or even some produced by more acceptable artists (Reign in Blood/Slayer) don't do much to get my wheels turning.
I applaud bands like Opeth, Katatonia and Dark Tranquility for writing lyrics that are heartfelt and mature. Not to mention well written. And bands like Paradise Lost, who can question God without being extreme reactionaries to Christian doctrine.

I think there is a definite correlation between a band having good music and well written lyrics. After all, anybody who writes a song would want it to be augmented by what the vocalist says, and not have the meaning of the lyrics detract from the 'brilliance' of their musicianship.

 

[HoserHellspawn]

Well, the distinction I would like to jump in and make (I admit this borders on quibbling over semantics, but...) is between actual Satanists (i.e. followers of the religion known as Satanism as outlined by Anton LaVey, author of The Satanic Bible, who don't actually worship Satan - in fact, don't believe in deities - but use Satan as a metaphorical representative for intelligence, originality and nonconformity) and "devil worshippers" who know nothing of satanism but simply like to rebel against anything there is to rebel against as strongly as possible (look for them to be listening to bands like, say, Deicide).

Garm and Erik from Ulver have discussed their beliefs as Satanists (in Lords of Chaos), but you wouldn't call Ulver a "Satanic band". Same thing with Ihsahn from Emperor... but I tend to think that both Emperor and Ulver (well, I can't actually read the lyrics Ulver wrote themselves, but William Blake wrote some great 'lyrics' for them...heh...) have both well-written original music and lyrics (although Emperor are, I suppose, somewhat Satanic, but you get my point...).

I agree with luke that the vast majority of the crap coming out of the States that depicts strong "satanism" is Mass Media Marketed crap targeting teenage youths who wish to possess something in an audio format with which to scare their parents (not that I necessarily mind this... the bible belt could use more of that...heh). At the same time, I want to point out that there are lots of artists that philosophically consider themselves Satanists that don't spew out crap purely for the point of rebellious blasphemy (an actual Satanist would be unconcerned with affecting the feelings of the "herd" and have no such need), so we make sure not to equate Satanism = bad.

Rambling Profusely,
HoserHellspawn

post-posting (?) note: hey, I happened to rather conveniently stumble across a link for more info on what the hell I was talking about above. http://www.religioustolerance.org/satanism.htm

 

[Heliologue]

But those "Satanist" band who are simply hedonists, why the inverted crosses and pentagrams?

It seems to me that most bands, true Satanists or not, who play around with that sort of imagery are just out to mask their lack of talent with a shtick, as I said before and Luke seconded.

And actually, it's been my experience that there are fewer serious-Satanist American bands than there are from Norway. I can't think of my Satanist US bands, besides maybe Slayer, but I can rattle off all sorts from Europe.

 

[Genevieve]

Well I always suppose that poeple into Black Metal already know why bands embraced such "philysophy".

The purpose of being a "satanist" was in reaction to the switch of "religion" in Norway made by their government. So it was a rebelious act against that "political" issue in the first place and then became the black metal trade mark since so many bands has followed their foot step without having a clue about whatsoever. And then you have idiot like Anton Lavey that ridiculize the scene by being so out of tune and context (actually anything it is possible to be out of there's Lavey) and Bands like Cof that use this "beliefs" to sell cds, I'm sorry but it is so obvious that Cof is a mainstreem teen product, not too serious nor scarry for the teen but enough to scare their parents and mallcore friends. We have to credit Fitlh for being a marketing genius on that.

So all in all I think that when it's use to demonstrate a band's pollitical point of view it is more than justified. Beside being satanist just for fun or being cool is as silly as being hindu by oneself.

Oh and I don't think that bands like Emperor, Mayhem, Marduk, Tsjuder, Dissection, ect... named them ... are "untalend idiot that invert cross"

 

[HoserHellspawn]

Hey there.

Xtokalon - can't argue with ya there. I've read some stuff on LaVey (obviously) and he seemed interesting and I agreed with a lot of the underlying principles, but as I said once elsewhere, he basically takes old atheistic existentialist ideas from philosophers like Neitzche and twists it slightly and dresses it all up in a Christianity-mocking package. So, I definately agree with you (my idea there was that if the thread is going to be about 'satanism' we should clarify what that is)

saturnix - probably quite true in a lot of cases. All bands generally have a "theme" of some sort that you can recognize in their style, and for a lot of bands that's being satanic and they play that up as much as possible for marketing purposes, all the same way CoF does like Genevieve says (with the exception that they probably believe more what they are saying). Whether that's masking a lack of talent is opinion, of course, but as I dislike the majority of those bands myself, (actually, I don't think I own one record with an inverted cross on it...) I can't argue with you, either.

Genevieve - if you're referring to the interview of LaVey in Lords of Chaos then, yeah, you're right... he was pretty much going off on tangents that had little to do with the subject at hand, Black Metal. Rambling old man...

 

[Satori]

I think it's all just a joke and that the majority of "satanic" bands (ie. slayer) are really just atheists with a rebellious slant and affectation for evil (like us).

I get a huge kick out of satanic lyrics, one of the reasons why I still like the immortal Reign in Blood (slayer).

Thinking that some bands are actually satanic insults their intelligence me thinks. I'm sure some are but I think not many.

 

[Sadistik]

Well I've given this topic a lot of thought over the years, and here are my views: many of the bands are playing a so-called "extreme" form of music. Thusly it would seem to many that "extreme" lyrics are neccesary to complete the extreme image and music. Bands with deeper thought (Opeth for example) can write lyrics in a wholly different manner, while still expressing their thoughts and emotions. I understand where it comes from though. Many of the bands love the idea of being considered "evil", so they latch on to the extreme anti-christian satanic imagery, without realizing that by doing so, they ARE christians in a way. The images and concepts they latch on to are all Christian concepts. Then there are bands that revel in dark imagery and ARE satanists (in the so-calle LaVeyan form). These bands often have more introspective lyrics that are more than just "kill and rape Christ!". These bands (Ulver and Emperor as well as some Judas Iscariot come to mind right away) seek to oppose Christianity as one would an all-contolling tyrant. These bands have a more thought-based approach than many a Deicide clones (Arrrggghhh...Glen Benton is a MORON!). I myself find myself associating philisophically with the latter camp, as I feel that we have created god only to cover up the fact that as a majority, humans have failed to realize the full potential of deep-thought. Now, as to the question of why the "deeper" satanic bands still use the imagery, this goes to LaVey making his form of belief one based on rituals and imagery. I personally think that laVay made some good points but that hs organization is a hypocritical, contradictory mess. My 2 cents...no flaming please!

 

[Duvall]

This all depends on who is defining satanism. If it's someone who is generally in favour of a Judeo-Christian church, then they generally consider anything that is blasphemous or anti-religious (or even from a different belief system..) to be satanic, or of the devil. By this, any rock music that poses religous questions (Alice in Chains? NIN? TooL?) The whole LaVey thing is different - that is the aforementioned hedonistic belief. (Can't think of any bands except The Eagles, take a close look at the balcony in the Hotel California picture ) Then you have the church-haters, who denounce all things godly and call themselves "satanists" because it sounds cool. (Deicide!) Then you have the people who take a mishmash of polytheistic religions and make up lyrics to suit them in some way, typically referring to Sumerian, Lovecraftian, and other mythoi.. (Cradle of Filth, Morbid Angel)

That seems to cover the different types of Satanism, in my book. I do see it as a very marketable thing, Manson did it just fine, and Cradle are as well - but they both pick and choose random "evil" images to conjure up, where Morbid Angel seem to have set themselves into a pretty concrete philosophy (Their webpage used to have a lot of material about this). With a band like Opeth, the only thing "satanic" that can be ascribed to it is its musical and vocal (superficial!) similarities to some of the better known and lesser-liked bands.

So, in closing this noncohesive mass of text.. We are lucky that Opeth and its corresponding members have the intelligence and integrity to avoid the temptation of throwing a little pentacle/baphomet onto their albums/foreheads.. I still laugh when I think about the lead guy from Deicide (can't be bothered to remember his name..) staring vaguely cross-eyed into the camera and saying (with an inverted cross branded into his forehead..) "I firmly believe in posession."

oh...my.

 

[Sadistik]

Well Morbid angel IS concrete on their philosophies, but have since been less vocal about said beliefs, most likely to avoid problems as they grow to be huge....
Then there are the CoF's of the world. They are just "evil" enough to scare parents without totally scaring the teens they are aiming at, as these teens that are attracted to CoF are most likely from a religous background (family-wise) and may want to shock family members without alienating them by cranking "Christraping Blackmetal" by Marduk. if we were defing satanism as a purely hedonistic desire for pleasure, any number of musicians in the past and present would be "satanists", and thusly I think that one criteria is not acceptable for classification as a satanist. Note: I am not a satanist, but do associate with some of the base philosophies....