Sends and Receives (Noob Question)

[Ganks]

Hey guys,

So I've finally got my mixes sounding pretty good.

My guitars sound pretty good, my drums are fine. My bass is excellent. (I love my bass tone I've dialed.)


BUTTTTT..
I cannot, cannot, cannot, CANNOT....

Get the vocals to sit right.

So here's my question:

When adding reverb to vocals, if I add it directly to the vocal track via VST (adding a plugin to the track), it seems to take the "in your face" out of the vocals.

It's like it's MAKING the vocals reverb, not ADDING reverb to them.
Does this make sense?

Anyways, I've read that adding reverb to vocals via send / receive through another bus is a good way to add reverb to vocals.

Mind you, I've never worked with any other buses, except for the individual tracks, and the master bus. I'm using REAPER.

How do I go about this method?
I've added a new track to my project, and I set the receive to my vocal track.

Then I added a VST to the added track, and put some reverb on the track.

What this did was bring my vocals to the added track, added reverb to them, and made them entirely too loud.

So now I've got a track of vocals WITHOUT reverb at one volume, and a track of vocals with reverb at the same volume.
If I turn down the "receive bus" to where the vocals are at the desired volume, they are down so low that you can't feel the reverb anymore.

Is there another technique or way to do this?
Am I missing something?

Good lord, I hope this makes sense!

 

[Morgan C]

Have you got a good vocalist? A shitty vocalist will be impossible to sit right, either pops out way too much or is completely buried.

And yes, reverb takes the 'in your face' out of the vocals. That's the whole point of them. Without reverb, it sounds like someone yelling or singing right in your ear. With them it provides a bit of distance. Whether that's something you want or not is up to you, there are a ton of albums with zero reverb or delay on the vocals.

 

[Ganks]

I know this, and yes we've got a good vocalist.

But there has to be a way to add reverb to a track while maintaining the "in your face" vibe.

I've heard tons of albums where the vocalist had TONS of reverb on, but you can still hear every note, growl, scream.. Whatever it may be.

I think Brian talked about this method (Referring to my first post.)

 

[raybrochill]

well I think a huuggee thing for me is high passing vocal verbs. if you dont, if muddys things up reallly fast. if you do, you'll get to the point where in the mix the vocal sounds pretty clean, but when it's soloed it sounds drenched in it. sounds like you're leaving the dry up on the verb in your vox bus, though. hence the vocal itself being too loud no matter what... unless I'm totally misunderstanding the issue

 

[Morgan C]

What albums are you referncing that have tons of reverb on it?

You reverb shouldn't cloud up your vocals. It should just make it not seem to in your face. If you listen on headphones it can be quite unpleasant to listen to dry vocals, as it sounds like someone yelling right in your ear. Reverb helps this, but it shouldn't muddy up your vocals.

Post clips.

Maybe try a new reverb. My current go-to vocal reverb is the vocal plate from the Bricasti IRs.

 

[Ganks]

I will have to look that up.

Do you apply reverb directly to a track, or use a send and/or receive?

By the way, thanks for your advice.

An example of what I'm talking about is this...
http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/rate-my-mix-tone-threads/549937-how-does-mix-sound.html

In this mix, I feel the vocals are TOO upfront and loud?

Everyone who listens says that they sit nicely, but when comparing that mix to pro mixes on my monitors, I can tell that my vocals are not sitting as nicely as they could be.

I know the problem could lie in a ton of other things besides just reverb, but I wanted to start there.

It could be:

- My recording environment
- My mic
- EQ
- Volume
- Compression
- Other instruments
- ETC.

But, like I said I wanted to start with a hint of reverb.
What is your opinion on the vocal sitting?

 

[Morgan C]

Yeah those vocals aren't sitting right at all. They just sound too loud, and maybe too harsh/thin.

One trick I like for reverb is to put a pingpong delay set to like 1/4L and 1/2R notes, with some feedback, just before the reverb (on a separate send), makes it more stereo and wide.

I also have trouble with vocals, I hate putting them loud as it makes the rest of the mix sound like a 'backing track', and much weaker as a result.. so my vocals usually end up a bit too soft. Chimaira Resurrection has awesome vocals imo, a bit buried so that the guitars sound so much huger but its so distinct. Actually just referencing that now your mix sounds a lot harsher, especially the vocals. Get some more mids into those vocals now and it should make them fit a lot better.

 

[Ganks]

I didn't think my ears were lying to me.

Anyways, we're recording a new song right now, and he's half done with vocals.

I've played around with some more compression, as well as reverb.

Do you think these vocals sit better?
What could I do to them to make them sit better?

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2798302/ANGER_VOCALANALYSIS.mp3

 

[Trevoire520]

Maybe try a longer pre-delay on your reverb? Or use a delay instead of a reverb?

 

[ForefrontStudio]

they sound loud to me. I run all my vocals verbs on an fx send rather than an insert now. I found the same thing you did. almost like it "makes the vocals into a reverb" I think what most of the problem is, is the pre-delay. it's actually cutting the attack. that's why you run drums to an fx track reverb as well. so they run parallel rather than in series. they maintain that attack and crack. running in series (on an insert) will also make the them muddy. I normally run the verb on an fx send, sometimes compress AFTER the verb, to make it stronger, then blend it to taste. you may also have to do some automation on the verb strength to keep the verb from sticking out too much in certain spots where the other instruments cut out, or get quieter.

I found another important part of getting the vocals to sit right is properly compressing, eqing, and de-essing them. the most important thing is rolling off some of the lows and low-mids.

...take my advice for whatever it's worth. I'm no pro, but these are some things that really helped me when I had this issue.

 

[arv_foh]

I never use verb on an insert, I always send it to a bus then apply the FX to that bus

 

[Zombietakeover]

I put all my effects on insterts and then i use the DRY / WET controls......sounds WAY better to me

except for drums then i use fx sends

 

[Ganks]

Thank you guys so much for the advice.

I guess my main problem is..

When I listen to vocals on my monitors, they are EXTREMELY loud, and when I take my mixes to my car, the vocals are lost.

Anyone else have this problem?

The mix is good enough, so I don't think the problem is necessarily a bad mix.
Everything else sounds fine in the car, but not the vocals.

How do you guys combat this?

 

[Notuern]

Or use a delay instead of a reverb?

I find this to work out the best.
I might ad a VERY short reverb just to get some room/air to it.

If i use a reverb on vocals, i always use pretty high amounts of pre-delay and very little early reflections.
Oh, and i tend to hi/lo-pass at ~175hz - ~3khz, that way the reverb hides in the back, but still ads depth and keeps definition.

 

[Ganks]

That usually points to your mixing room's acoustic treatment and your monitor setup. Do you have a relatively ideal setup in that regard?

Not really at all.
I have no room treatment, and my monitors are probably too close together.

 

[Dollarosa]

For vocals, I smash them with compression, add some tap delay, reverb and doubler effect. Eq and compression are inserts, sometimes verb might be, but pull the wet and dry fader down to min. Tap delay and doubler effects are sends. Play around with the amount of vocal track you want to send (and I don't pan the sends). Also adding saturation to vocals make them stick out of the mix without raising the volume fader too much.

Try and make sure that all vocals tracks are sent to one buss, so when you get the level right between harmonies and lead vocals it is only a matter of moving the buss fader to get the vocals sitting right in the mix. Even if you have a bad singer with bad tech, volume automation + compression can really smooth the changes in volume. Also another trick that seems to work for me is having the vocals nearly the same volume as the snare track. Normally my drums are sticking out nice having their own space, by placing the volume similar to the snare I am makings sure that the vocals are upfront and not sitting too far behind the mix.